Author Topic: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?  (Read 6702 times)

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admin

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Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« on: January 10, 2012, 12:04:27 AM »
Easy question.
 Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?

Some OT reading-

Deuteronomy 30:1-6

Jeremiah 30, 31, and 33

Ezekiel 36–37

Amos 9:11-15

Zephaniah 3:14-20

Zechariah 12–14

Zant Law

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 09:40:49 AM »
Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.

How could you possibly have security in your own salvation knowing that God would do something like that? I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament where Israel is referred to meaning the church. Unfortunately many of the churches are teaching this theology.

Fat

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »


Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson

Zant Law

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 08:17:45 AM »


Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson

He took a half an hour to say what I said in one paragraph.

savedbymercy

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 06:40:48 AM »
Quote
Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.

What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !

Zant Law

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 07:49:38 AM »
What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !
Hello savedbymercy,

Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?

How did these people know of the OT promises? They were Jews kicked out of Rome. Acts 18

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savedbymercy

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 08:54:04 AM »
zant

Quote
Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?

That was my point !

Zant Law

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 09:37:06 AM »
zant

That was my point !

So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?

Joel 3 16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. 17 Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.
18 And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water ; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. 20 But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. 21 And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.

Fat

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 10:12:54 AM »
Hello everyone  8)

Hello

Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.

He gives a warning:

17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

savedbymercy

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 05:12:41 PM »
zant

Quote
So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?

Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !

Zant Law

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:17:40 AM »
zant

Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !

Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?
Replacement theology can not hold up to any biblical scrutiny. Fat was right on with the Roman 11 warning. The promise of Joel 3 has yet to come.

savedbymercy

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 03:09:13 AM »
zant

Quote
Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?

I did not say that, for everyone born again takes part in a work of the Holy Spirit !

Zant Law

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What is so bad about replacement theology?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2012, 05:14:50 PM »
I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
 
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
 
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
 
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.

savedbymercy

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Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2012, 07:16:53 AM »
Acts 13:23
 
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
 
This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..
 
Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69
 
 
68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]
 
69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
 
This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..
 
This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15
 
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
 
This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which,  salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..
 
This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2
 
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
 
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]
 
This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17
 
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 [ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]

 
So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..
 
But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..
 
Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6
 
Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:
 
You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one paul preached in Acts 13:23
 
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
 
Now paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..
 
Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.
 
The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31
 
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
 
The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:
 
That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..
 
Notice..Eph 2:12,19
 
12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 
They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,
 
 in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over ishmael..Children of promise..
 
So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]
 
Eph 3:3-6
 
 
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
 
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
 
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]
 
In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people  or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]
 
but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..
 
You know how paul says in Rom 9: 6
 
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]
 
Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham..

Fat

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Re: What is so bad about replacement theology?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 09:20:29 AM »
I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
 
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
 
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
 
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.

I would add to your second point, or Diprose's second point, they have to completely ignore major portions of both the OT and NT. If you ever get the time you would find it interesting to read the history of replacement theology.