Author Topic: The Times of the Gentiles  (Read 3602 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Intojoy

  • Guest
The Times of the Gentiles
« on: January 05, 2013, 01:02:51 am »

An area of introductory material needed for the understanding of prophecy involves the understanding of the nature and the course of the Times of the Gentiles.

A definition of the term “Times of the Gentiles” can be gleaned from Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles can best be defined as that long period of time from the Babylonian Empire to the Second Coming of the Messiah, during which time the Gentiles will have dominance over the City of Jerusalem. This does not rule out temporary Jewish control of the city, but all such Jewish control will be temporary until the Second Coming of the Messiah. Such temporary control was exercised during the Maccabbean period (164-63 B.C.), the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (A.D. 66-70), the Second Jewish Revolt against Rome, also known as the Bar Cochba Revolt (A.D. 132-135), and since 1967 as a result of the Six-Day War. This, too, is temporary, as Gentiles will yet tread down Jerusalem for at least another 31⁄ 2 years (Rev. 11:1-2). Any Jewish takeover of the City of Jerusalem before the Second Coming of the Messiah must, therefore, be viewed as a temporary one and does not mean that the Times of the Gentiles have ended. The Times of the Gentiles can only end when the Gentiles can no longer tread down the City of Jerusalem.

 

 

macuser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 08:13:11 am »

 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Luke 21:32)  And in the Scriptures, a generation is about 40 years. 1967 to 2007 is 40 years. Granted in this modern age this generation could live on to 2067, but Biblically this generation is now.

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 11:13:56 am »

The Matthew account reads: Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The Luke account reads: And he spoke to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees: when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh. Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This section has often been misused by those who have attempted to date the Rapture or the Second Coming of the Messiah. The fig tree is often taken to mean the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Then, within a generation, that is forty years from 1948, the Second Coming must occur. This would place the Second Coming in 1988. Because the Rapture precedes the Second Coming by at least seven years, it would place the Rapture by 1981. This is simply date-setting–something the Scriptures clearly forbid. Nevertheless, date-setters continue to revise their 1981 “prophecy” year after year. Since 1988 has now come and gone, the new focus is to start the forty years with the Six-Day War in 1967. So now, some are predicting the return of the Lord around 2006-2007.

There are two errors in this type of reasoning and its exposition. First, the Bible nowhere limits the period of a generation to simply forty years. The one place where the term “generation” is given a specific length of time, it is reckoned to be one hundred years (Gen. 15:13-16). Actually, the term “generation” can mean “twenty,” ”forty,” “seventy,” “eighty,” and “one hundred” years. Sometimes it simply means “contemporaries,” much as we use the term today. That is the way it is used here. A second mistake made in this reasoning is assuming that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel and that this passage is speaking of the re-establishment of the Jewish State in 1948. This has not been mentioned anywhere in the entire Olivet Discourse. The re-establishment of Israel has merely been assumed and presupposed in the passage, but it has never been dealt with specifically . Furthermore, the usual scriptural symbol for Israel is the vine.

However, the real point of this passage is that the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration, not as a symbol for Israel. This is clearly seen from verse 29 of the Luke passage, which reads “Behold the fig tree, and all the trees.” If the fig tree represents Israel, what, then, do all the other trees represent? If they refer to other nations, and since a number of nations have risen–and keep rising–since 1948, then when would the forty-year countdown really begin? Neither the fig tree nor the other trees are used symbolically to refer to any nation or nations; rather, they are being used literally as an illustration.

The point of the illustration is this: When the fig tree, and all the other trees begin to blossom, it is a sure sign that summer is on its way, because blossoming occurs in the spring. Then, in application of the illustration, Jesus said, “Even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.” Just as a blossoming fig tree means that summer is on its way, in the same way, when these events that Yeshua spoke about occur, then they can know that His return is near.

But what is it that signals the soon return of the Lord? It is not the re-establishment of Israel in 1948, because Jesus never mentioned that event in this passage. Rather, the event that He was speaking of was the Abomination of Desolation. When the Abomination of Desolation occurs, it will signal the soon return of the Messiah, namely only 3_years later. More specifically, it will be exactly 1,260 days from the Abomination of Desolation until the Second Coming.

Then Yeshua stated that the generation that sees this event–the Abomination of Desolation–will still be around when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs 3_ years later. The point of verse 34 is not that the generation that sees the re-establishment of the Jewish State will still be here at the Second Coming, but rather, the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be here at the Second Coming. Verse 34 is intended to be a word of comfort in light of the world-wide attempt at Jewish destruction. It must be kept in mind that the Abomination of Desolation signals Satan's and the Antichrist's final attempt to exterminate the Jews. The fact that the Jewish generation will still be here when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs shows that Satan's attempt toward Jewish destruction will fail, and the Jewish saints of the second half of the Tribulation can receive comfort from these words.

The “coming” referred to in this passage is not the Rapture, for which no signs are promised, but the Second Coming itself. This is evident from the Luke account, for he states that what the Abomination of Desolation signals is the coming of the Kingdom of God. The Millennial Kingdom will be a result of the Second Coming, not of the Rapture. Again, the point of this section is not that the fig tree represents Israel in 1948, but rather, the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration. The point of the illustration is to provide a word of comfort that the world-wide attempt to destroy the Jews is destined for failure, for the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be around when the Messiah returns.

Fat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 12:24:07 pm »
Great topic Intojoy.

First of all at this time the Jews do not have total control of Jerusalem. The Jews have a presence in Jerusalem, but you could hardly say that they control it.

Second of all Luke 21:24 does not give a starting time for the times of the Gentiles fulfillment.
There is one verse in the Bible which does give us a starting time an ending time. This is found in Revelations 11:2. Very clear here Christ is telling us that this time period is the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, and this fits right in with Luke 21.

Now we can throw in Romans 11:25 where Paul speaks of the fullness of the Gentiles, I believe this is unrelated and talking about the gospel reaching the Gentiles, but it may be worth discussing.

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 01:08:04 pm »
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world?

The Luke account reads: And they asked him, saying, Teacher, when therefore shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass?

Altogether, three questions were asked which, at the same time, included requests for three signs. The first question in the Matthew passage was, “Tell us, when shall these things be?” These things refer to the destruction of the Temple that He had prophesied in the previous two verses. In the Luke passage, this first question is phrased as, “Master, but when] shall these things be?” and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass? In other words, the first question was: When will the Temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign that this is about to take place?

The second question was, “What shall be the sign of your coming?” This question does not concern the Rapture of the Church because the Rapture is imminent and can happen at any moment, having no warning sign preceding it. However, the Second Coming will be preceded by a sign, and the disciples asked what the sign would be.

The third question was, “What shall be the sign of the end of the world?” The Greek word translated world actually means “age.” They asked for a third sign, and that was, “What will be the sign that the end of this age has begun?” In rabbinic theology of that day, the rabbis spoke of two ages: “this age,” meaning the age in which we now live, and “the age to come,” meaning the Messianic Age. So the question is, “What is the sign that the last days of this age have begun and will lead to the Messianic Age?”

Altogether, then, there were three questions in which the disciples asked for three signs to watch for. Yeshua answered these questions, but not in the same order as they were asked. Nor are all three answers found in all three accounts. While Matthew and Mark recorded the answers to the second and third questions, they ignored the answer to the first question. It is Luke who recorded the Messiah's answer to the first question.

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 01:11:59 pm »
The Sign of the End of the Age Having provided for His disciples certain characteristics that would in no way indicate that the end had begun, Jesus next proceeded to answer the third question, which concerned the sign that the end of the age had truly begun. It is recorded in Matthew 24:7-8; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10-11.

The Matthew account reads: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. But all these things are the beginning of travail. According to all three Gospel writers, the sign of the end of the age is said to be when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. This act will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places, and then Yeshua clearly stated that this would be the beginning of travail. The term travail means “birth pang.” It refers to the series of birth pangs that a woman undergoes before giving birth to a baby. The prophets pictured the last days as a series of birth pangs before the birth of the new Messianic Age. The beginning of travail, the first birth pang, and the sign that the end of the age has begun is when “nation rises against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.”

Jesus had already clearly stated that local wars between a few nations would not indicate that the end had begun. But then He said that when there is “nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom,” this will mean the end of the age has begun.

To understand what the idiom “nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” means, it is necessary to return to the Jewish origin of these statements.  This expression is a Hebrew idiom for a world war. Yeshua's statement here is that when a world war occurs, rather than merely a local war, that world war would signal that the end of the age had begun.

This is quite in keeping with the Jewish writings of this same period. One Jewish source known as the Zohar Chadash states: “ At that time wars shall be stirred up in the world. Nation shall be against nation and city against city; much distress shall be renewed against the enemies of the Israelites.”

Another Jewish source known as the Bereshit Rabbah states: “If you shall see the kingdoms rising against each other in turn, then give heed and note the footsteps of the Messiah (XLII:4).” The rabbis clearly taught that a world-wide conflict would signal the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua corrected this idea slightly , for He said that when the world war occurs, while it does not signal the coming of the Messiah, it will signal that the end of the age has begun. These birth pangs that Yeshua talked about are the same as the “footsteps” that the rabbis talked about. The “footsteps of the Messiah” had to do with the series of events that will lead up to the coming of the Messiah. The title of the 500-page prophecy book, The Footsteps of the Messiah, is based on this Jewish concept, reflected in the Matthew account concerning nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.

World War I, 1914-1918, was the fulfillment of this particular prophecy, for that was the First World War. As virtually all historians agree, World War II was merely a continuation of World War I. Furthermore, both world wars had a decisive impact on Jewish history. World War I gave impetus to the growth of the Zionist movement, and World War II led to the re-establishment of the Jewish State. Since World War I, history has entered the last days of the Church Age. However, the last days are an extended period of time.

The sign that the end of the age has begun is the world-wide conflict fulfilled by World War I and World War II.

Fat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 03:37:35 pm »
You seem to be morphing here from the church age to the time of the Gentiles.

You really never say they are the same but you seem to be indicating they are. In plain speak is that what you're saying?

I would like to ask you if you believe that the time of the Gentiles extends beyond the three and half years limited by Revelations 11?

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 04:12:28 pm »
Sorry, I believe we as members of the church age are in the times of the Gentiles, and that it comes to an end with Messiah's return at the end of the Tribulation. I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven program has gone into its mystery form as pictured by the parables. According to Daniel, the antichrist kicks off the Tribulation with the signing of a peace treaty with Israel, at the mid point, he turns against the Jews in an attempt to thwart the Messiah from keeping His promise of delivering to Israel the Messianic Kingdom. What is your understanding of these things?

 Thanks,
Michael

Fat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 04:47:14 pm »
Okay then you're post tribulation, I'm a pre-trip guy myself. I don't believe that the rapture is the same as the second coming, the second coming is when Christ actually takes over the throne of David.
The Scriptures teaches us (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:8, Rev. 19:14, colossians 3:4) that the saints will return with Christ on his second coming. This of course cannot be unless the rapture had already occurred.


Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 05:21:49 pm »
Understood. Sorry bout the confusion. I'm not a scholar, just a student of Scripture. The information I put forth is from my studies under Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
Ill go out on a limb and say we are closer today then we were yesterday.
I believe in a pre trib rapture too.
From Hawaii,
Mike

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2013, 05:34:22 pm »
You asked if I thought if the times of the Gentiles extends past the first half of the Tribulation, that confused me a little. I'm pre - trib but think the Gentile power continues up to the end of the trib. Is this your belief too?

Fat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 07:48:58 pm »


The way I understand what Christ was saying in Luke 21 and Revelation 11 the time of the Gentiles will begin right after the rapture of the Church. I do not see how they can coincide with each other according to what is being said here. The time of the Gentiles continues for 42 months (3 1/2 years). After which Satan and the antichrist basically take over Jerusalem. Then 3 1/2 years later the Saints will return with Christ or should I say Christ will return with the Saints, and Christ will take his rightful seat on the throne of David for 1000 years.

To be clear I'm saying the Church will not be here at the second coming, but they will be participating in the second coming.

Fat
Idaho

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 11:32:52 pm »
Well we agree on where the church is, with Christ in heaven during the trib, and returning with Him at the end. The book of Daniel needs to be part of this study, the fourth beast was Rome which corresponded with Nebuchadnezzar's colossal man. That fourth Gentile empire is now in its two division stage, represented by the two legs of Neb's man. Rome eventually split having two capitals, Constantinople and Rome. That division is represented by the gentile powers in the east and the gentile powers of the west of our world today. The eastern power headed by Russia will eventually invade Israel (Ezekiel 38), and be completely and utterly destroyed by God. When this happens the fourth beast of Daniel will enter into a one world system which breaks into a ten division phase (ten toes) of which the antichrist will arise this bringing the fourth beast into the antichrist stage. Then after the rapture, antichrist makes a covenant with Israel which kicks off the tribulation. In my view, it is not the rapture that initiates the Tribulation but the covenant made by Israel with the antichrist. Furthermore, the birth pangs spoken of by Yeshua are WW1, 1948 the rebirth of the nation of Israel, the retaking of Jerusalem, and the next birth pang the earth will experience will either be the rapture or we may witness the Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38. Exciting times.

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 11:48:32 pm »
The Sign of the End of the Age Having provided for His disciples certain characteristics that would in no way indicate that the end had begun, Jesus next proceeded to answer the third question, which concerned the sign that the end of the age had truly begun. It is recorded in Matthew 24:7-8; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10-11.

The Matthew account reads: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. But all these things are the beginning of travail. According to all three Gospel writers, the sign of the end of the age is said to be when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. This act will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places, and then Yeshua clearly stated that this would be the beginning of travail. The term travail means “birth pang.” It refers to the series of birth pangs that a woman undergoes before giving birth to a baby. The prophets pictured the last days as a series of birth pangs before the birth of the new Messianic Age. The beginning of travail, the first birth pang, and the sign that the end of the age has begun is when “nation rises against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.”

Jesus had already clearly stated that local wars between a few nations would not indicate that the end had begun. But then He said that when there is “nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom,” this will mean the end of the age has begun.

To understand what the idiom “nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” means, it is necessary to return to the Jewish origin of these statements.  This expression is a Hebrew idiom for a world war. Yeshua's statement here is that when a world war occurs, rather than merely a local war, that world war would signal that the end of the age had begun.

This is quite in keeping with the Jewish writings of this same period. One Jewish source known as the Zohar Chadash states: “ At that time wars shall be stirred up in the world. Nation shall be against nation and city against city; much distress shall be renewed against the enemies of the Israelites.”

Another Jewish source known as the Bereshit Rabbah states: “If you shall see the kingdoms rising against each other in turn, then give heed and note the footsteps of the Messiah (XLII:4).” The rabbis clearly taught that a world-wide conflict would signal the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua corrected this idea slightly , for He said that when the world war occurs, while it does not signal the coming of the Messiah, it will signal that the end of the age has begun. These birth pangs that Yeshua talked about are the same as the “footsteps” that the rabbis talked about. The “footsteps of the Messiah” had to do with the series of events that will lead up to the coming of the Messiah. The title of the 500-page prophecy book, The Footsteps of the Messiah, is based on this Jewish concept, reflected in the Matthew account concerning nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.

World War I, 1914-1918, was the fulfillment of this particular prophecy, for that was the First World War. As virtually all historians agree, World War II was merely a continuation of World War I. Furthermore, both world wars had a decisive impact on Jewish history. World War I gave impetus to the growth of the Zionist movement, and World War II led to the re-establishment of the Jewish State. Since World War I, history has entered the last days of the Church Age. However, the last days are an extended period of time.

The sign that the end of the age has begun is the world-wide conflict fulfilled by World War I and World War II.

Having provided an answer to the third question regarding the sign of the end of the age, the Messiah then turned back to His own time to spell out some of the personal experiences that the apostles would have to undergo. This is recorded in Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-19.

The Luke account reads: But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name's sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer:  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. And not a hair of your head shall perish. In your patience ye shall win your souls. The Luke account clearly states that what is about to be described is going to occur before the sign that the end of the age has begun, as the passage begins with the phrase, But before all these things. Jesus then described some personal experiences that the apostles were to go through after He departed from them. Altogether, He listed nine things. First, in verse 12a, they will be rejected by the Jews. Secondly, in verse 12b, they will be rejected by the Gentiles. Thirdly, in verse 13, they will undergo persecutions, but these persecutions will provide opportunities for testimony. Fourthly, they will succeed in proclaiming the gospel everywhere (Mk. 13:10); this is verified by Romans 10:18 and Colossians 1:6, 23. Fifth, in verses 14-15, they need not worry about preparing defenses before their trials, because they will be given divine utterance when they are brought before judgment. Sixth, in verse 16, they will be rejected by their own family members. Seventh, in verse 17, they will be hated by all men to the point that some will be martyred. Eighth, in verse 18, nevertheless, their salvation is assured. And ninth, in verse 19, they will succeed in winning many souls.

Intojoy

  • Guest
Re: The Times of the Gentiles
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 11:53:14 pm »
That the apostles did, indeed, experience all these things is well-known both from the Book of Acts and from other historical records that trace the activities of the apostles beyond that which is recorded in the Book of Acts. While the Messiah had already answered their third question concerning the sign of the end of the age, before proceeding to answer their other two questions, He chose to predict some of the personal experiences that they would have to undergo before the sign of the end of the age would come. They were not to expect the end of the age to come too soon. In fact, Jesus predicted that many of them would die before the end of the age ever began.