Author Topic: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?  (Read 2677 times)

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JB Horn

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Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« on: June 10, 2013, 12:53:27 AM »
The original lie came from the king of liars.

Quote
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed , has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden '?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat ; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' " 4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die ! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 You will not die and you will become like God. (LDS Doctrine)

And that is a whopper of a lie to claim that by sinning you would become like God.

LDS claim comes from Psalms 82:6  (King James Version)
I have said, Ye are gods (~yhla); and all of you are children of the most High.

What is being discussed here is the office of Judge or Ruler.  Strong's Number 430

Exodus 21:6
Exodus 22:28
Romans 13:1
John 10:35

Bad doctrine???

Moss

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 10:16:09 AM »
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22 KJV)

As one of us, not one of us. We were made in the image of God, now we know good and evil but we do not have the power or knowledge to create anything from nothing.

We are not gods and will never be unless we redefined the word.

Yes bad doctrine.

clark thompson

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 05:30:39 PM »
Their doctrine is more faulty then taht because they also believe Go Himself was once a man who became God.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 09:50:25 PM »
Their doctrine is more faulty then taht because they also believe Go Himself was once a man who became God.

And presently living on some planet somewhere.  8)

calluna

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 04:14:06 PM »
'"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.' Ge 2:15 NASB

What can this mean? It cannot mean that A&E did not know right from wrong; the instruction from God was premised on an existing knowledge of good and evil! The only meaning of this is that, if they were to disobey, A&E would die, and die the same day. They did not die the same day physically, so this must refer to death of the soul. So knowledge of good and evil here refers to the sense of guilt that comes after doing what one should not have done, or not doing what one should have done. It is that condemnation that Paul referred to in Romans 8:1. So, just one sin is sufficient to condemn us forever. This is why we are indeed gods; we have sovereign right to destroy ourselves, or to live, by faith, and no power in earth or heaven can take it from us.

But does this mean that God, who also possesses the knowledge of good and evil, is also guilty? No, but he does know what it is for wrongdoers to feel guilt, which is why atonement was made for us. So the subtlety of the serpent was to allege that it was possible for a tempted being other than God to know of guilt, without being guilty; in effect, to do wrong without feeling guilty. Which is exactly what Satan does, and has done. It is the deadening of conscience that is his aim; conscience 'seared as with a hot iron', as Paul put it.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2013, 08:43:20 AM »
calluna,

I believe that most of us have wondered about the tree at sometime in their studies, I know I have.

The questions I asked myself were:

1) Why was the tree put in the Garden in the first place?
2) Who was the tree there for if it was not to be eaten from?
3) What does it mean to have knowledge of good and evil?
4) Could God's plan go forward without the tree?

Quote from: calluna
This is why we are indeed gods; we have sovereign right to destroy ourselves, or to live, by faith, and no power in earth or heaven can take it from us.

I disagree with you here totally and so did Paul.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills. 19 You will say to me, therefore, "Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" 20 But who are you-anyone who talks back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" 21 Or has the potter no right over His clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?







calluna

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2013, 04:53:32 AM »
Why was the tree put in the Garden in the first place? Because there must be choice if there is to be love. Does God want to be served by automatons? Apparently not. That's why the cosmos exists, to provide choices. Hard, moral choices. It has been said that God created in order to find out who his friends are. That isn't quite right. God knows who his friends are. What he gets by creation is solid evidence to support his opinion. No argument.

Paul in no way contradicts this fundamental biblical teaching in Romans 9. In fact, he confirms it. It is not that God makes people accept or refuse him. It is that, by the cross, he gives choice to all. Of course, those 'leopards' who know that they 'cannot' change their spots feel that they are given no choice. But choice is what they actually live with, every day, until they die. Then they must live with the consequences, about which they will have no choice.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 01:27:11 PM »
Why was the tree put in the Garden in the first place? Because there must be choice if there is to be love. Does God want to be served by automatons? Apparently not. That's why the cosmos exists, to provide choices. Hard, moral choices. It has been said that God created in order to find out who his friends are. That isn't quite right. God knows who his friends are. What he gets by creation is solid evidence to support his opinion. No argument.

Paul in no way contradicts this fundamental biblical teaching in Romans 9. In fact, he confirms it. It is not that God makes people accept or refuse him. It is that, by the cross, he gives choice to all. Of course, those 'leopards' who know that they 'cannot' change their spots feel that they are given no choice. But choice is what they actually live with, every day, until they die. Then they must live with the consequences, about which they will have no choice.




1) Why was the tree put in the Garden in the first place?

God's law comes in two forms, one is to require us to do something the other is to forbid us from doing something. Both can be identified in the 10 Commandments.

In Genesis 2 Adam is given two Commandments, the first was in verse 15 where God gave Adam a chore that he must do. Second as we've already discussed, was verse 17 where God put restrictions on Adam. If God's purpose was to test Adam, as you have suggested, he did not have to plant the tree of knowledge in the garden. I don't really believe that God needs evidence to confirm his knowledge, that's a little bit ridiculous on its face.

2) Who was the tree there for if it was not to be eaten from?

So we come back to the question who was the tree put there for? I think the answer is simple, just by asking yourself who was the one who used the tree for his purpose? Of course the answer there is Satan. The first commandment given to Adam, tending the garden, carry no penalty it is only the second commandment that carried a penalty. That penalty of death is in fact Satan's goal, and he is he only one to benefit from the tree of knowledge in the garden.

3) What does it mean to have knowledge of good and evil?

I believe the answer there is also easy, God's will is good and Satan's will is evil. Because of Adam all mankind has become subject to the will of Satan. But you say that you have a sovereign will and you have the will to follow the LAW.

The way I understand it you are saying that you have enough will to determine on your own if you are going to sin in your life or live a sinless life. Then I have to make the assumption that since you chose to follow Christ you have made the decision with your free will never to sin again. I like to know how that is working out for you? If you have chose with your free will to sin after you received salvation through Christ crucifixion, does this mean that Christ must be crucified again for your salvation? Or does this mean that you are incapable of living a sinless life because you do not have the will to do so?
 So how evil could one be to accept God's grace and the salvation offered to him through the blood of Christ, and then turn around and spit and Christ's faith, smile and ask again for forgiveness so that you may repeat and repeat and repeat your sinful nature. If you have the will to stop this and you don't what does that say of you?

 Of course I may be all wet and you may be in fact without sin.

4) Could God's plan go forward without the tree?

Revelation 17:17  For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His plan by having one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast until God's words are accomplished.

Let's move forward to Genesis 3

Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed more than any livestock and more than any wild animal. You will move on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life.  I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.

 So God used the tree to punish Satan, and Satan will eventually receive death for his lie to Eve.


 Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, in Christ; 4 for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,



Jack Koons

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 06:11:47 AM »
This is truly a topic that few people care to address. Sometimes the truth is so simple we overlook it.

Adam and Eve most certainly died I'm the Garden. Yes, their souls died. Let me say for 'conversation sake', there are many Bible truths that we (I know I) haven't been made privy to understand. This doesn't have any effect on the truth of Scripture, it just means God is smarter than us!

So why the tree?

It's all about truth, choices, and consequences. God addressed all three. Without the tree, they have no choice. The tree was nothing more than the object of choice. They could choose to believe God concerning this tree, or they could choose to believe Satan.

God gave His word, Satan have his word. Only one could be telling the truth!

While it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, the object of choice had to be something that would allow them to 'act' on their choice.

Jack

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 07:15:27 AM »
This is truly a topic that few people care to address. Sometimes the truth is so simple we overlook it.

Adam and Eve most certainly died I'm the Garden. Yes, their souls died. Let me say for 'conversation sake', there are many Bible truths that we (I know I) haven't been made privy to understand. This doesn't have any effect on the truth of Scripture, it just means God is smarter than us!

So why the tree?

It's all about truth, choices, and consequences. God addressed all three. Without the tree, they have no choice. The tree was nothing more than the object of choice. They could choose to believe God concerning this tree, or they could choose to believe Satan.

God gave His word, Satan have his word. Only one could be telling the truth!

While it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, the object of choice had to be something that would allow them to 'act' on their choice.

Jack

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Exact same paradigm as Adam was confronted with isn't it? Either have the faith to obey God by the Way he says; but the stakes are higher. For the penalty for violating this law is eternal death. So what are you gonna do?

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2013, 03:59:57 PM »
The original lie came from the king of liars.

 You will not die and you will become like God. (LDS Doctrine)

And that is a whopper of a lie to claim that by sinning you would become like God.

LDS claim comes from Psalms 82:6  (King James Version)
I have said, Ye are gods (~yhla); and all of you are children of the most High.

What is being discussed here is the office of Judge or Ruler.  Strong's Number 430

Exodus 21:6
Exodus 22:28
Romans 13:1
John 10:35

Bad doctrine???

In the matter of religion all doctrine is a lie except one. Before taking on the Mormons as a task to correct them you had better have made certain that your religious convictions are not also a lie.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2013, 04:18:31 PM »
In the matter of religion all doctrine is a lie except one. Before taking on the Mormons as a task to correct them you had better have made certain that your religious convictions are not also a lie.

So you're saying that the Mormons teach a true doctrine? Interesting.

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2013, 04:50:32 PM »
So you're saying that the Mormons teach a true doctrine? Interesting.

No I am not teaching that the doctrine(s) of Mormonism are true. As a matter of fact I do not have any affiliation with the Mormon church nor do I support them in any way. You, however, have implied in your OP that what you believe religion wise is far above being superior to the Mormon's religious conjecture. I really don't think you're any better off than them because of the flaws in your own belief system.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
I know of no religious perspective within the contemporary "Christian" assumption of salvation that is not a direct objection to the Rom. 2:13 statement.  Contemporary "Christianity" asserts "I don't hav'ta obey no law whatsoever to be declared righteous by God. Jesus died in my place." Oh? really?   

Alexander Winslow

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Re: Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2014, 07:01:04 PM »
Can a doctrine follow the serpent lie?

It already has, the doctrine of human immortality!

Remember, Satan said to Eve that if she did disobey God and eat of the fruit of the tree; she would not die!

So the instigator of the immortal soul, is Satan!

Almighty God on the other hand states that all souls are his and the soul that sins shall die and its thoughts perish immediately! (Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 146:4)

Alexander