Author Topic: Salvation is not of works  (Read 3075 times)

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macuser

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Salvation is not of works
« on: June 26, 2013, 11:38:06 PM »
Salvation is not of works.

Does this doctrine lead to problems?

Ephesians 2:4-14
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved! 6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in [His] kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation-created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

But on the other hand.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.

JB Horn

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 01:32:34 PM »
Salvation is not of works.

Does this doctrine lead to problems?


It is not the doctrine that is the problem, it is the misinterpretation of the Scriptures that produce rival doctrine.

James says "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works ; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.' "

 The point James is making is that faith cannot be seen without works. Remember also we are told that we will know them by their works. In short work comes from faith but faith does not come from works. One has faith you will see his works.

JB

Fat

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 10:17:23 AM »
Salvation by works is nothing more than salvation by the law. There's no action that you can take that is going to Sanctified or regenerate your soul, this is a function of the Holy Spirit.

calluna

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 12:59:51 PM »
Salvation is not of works.

Does this doctrine lead to problems?

It certainly has led to problems. That is, if mendacity and persecution are problematic. If salvation is of faith in a perfect atoning sacrifice, the person of faith needs nothing whatever, in spiritual and moral terms. Such a person is taught by the Holy Spirit directly, and does not need or seek any human mentor:

'The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment.' 1 Co 2:15 NIV

It was this independence and divine presence that struck fear into the minds of the Jewish Sanhedrin, who were very aware of their own compromises and corruption. So they persecuted Jesus, and then the church. They persecuted from outside the church, but also from within it:

'Some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Ac 15:5 NIV

Of course, Paul later told the Galatians that they were foolish to take note of this fatal teaching. So, hardly before the church had begun, it was under deadly attack on the ground of its very doctrinal basis. Now bodily circumcision has not often since then been promoted as necessary for salvation, doubtless because of Paul's explicit warning, but many other things have been, usually works that seem desirable for Christians. But these 'good' things are never described in the NT as necessary for justification, because not one is, or can be. So, whether the Christian is told that there is something that he must do, or something extra that he must believe, in order to be accounted righteous, his response is to make correction, and indeed identify as a dangerous person whoever is attempting to persuade him.

One of the verses used by works-justifiers is this:

'You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.' Jas 2:24 NASB

It is essential here to realise that James referred to justification before men, not before God. If he really meant justification before God, this letter is not part of the Bible at all. But it is plain that James was writing to people who knew that justification was by faith: had probably read Paul's words, and taken them as excuse to sit back, ungrateful to Jesus for his sacrifice on their behalf. If love grows cold, there is nothing left at all, James was warning them.

As James also wrote, if a person is to be accepted by the church, the works inspired by the Spirit will be clear and abiding in the life of the saint. In the eyes of humanity, whether church or not church, a Christian is one who shows patience, kindness, willingness to forgive, self-control, humility, gentleness, reliability and love for all. If those fruits are lacking, say James, Paul, John and Jesus, there is no Spirit of God present, and no actual faith. And no salvation.

JB Horn

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 01:26:16 PM »
Calluna,

Well said, good post.

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 06:09:27 AM »
Salvation is not of works.

Does this doctrine lead to problems?

Ephesians 2:4-14
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved! 6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in [His] kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation-created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

But on the other hand.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.

But on the other hand:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight , but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Zant Law

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 10:35:29 AM »
But on the other hand:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight , but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Excuse me Mac if I respond. Mr. Jones has posted this verse all over the board and apparently has not studied it before hand.

I'll repeat, not once in the entire Law of Moses does it say that it was the means for people earning eternal salvation or a ticket to heaven. There was no promise of heaven for observing the Law. In fact we are told that it is impossible. If salvation can come from the law why then did Christ go to the cross? It was His act that saved you not your act of righteously obeying the law.

 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:6

Do not bring your servant into judgment,
  for no-one living is righteous before you.  (Psalm 143:2)

If you O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?
    But with you there is forgiveness ...
     with him is full redemption.
      He himself will redeem Israel from all their sin.
                   (Psalm 130:3,7,8)


Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 12:19:31 PM »
Excuse me Mac if I respond. Mr. Jones has posted this verse all over the board and apparently has not studied it before hand.

I'll repeat, not once in the entire Law of Moses does it say that it was the means for people earning eternal salvation or a ticket to heaven. There was no promise of heaven for observing the Law. In fact we are told that it is impossible. If salvation can come from the law why then did Christ go to the cross? It was His act that saved you not your act of righteously obeying the law.

 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:6

Do not bring your servant into judgment,
  for no-one living is righteous before you.  (Psalm 143:2)

If you O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?
    But with you there is forgiveness ...
     with him is full redemption.
      He himself will redeem Israel from all their sin.
                   (Psalm 130:3,7,8)

Excuse me Mac. Mr. Jones has extensively studied why Paul wrote Rom. 2:13. It is the upstart who claims that I haven't who is the personage in error. Paul is not referencing the the law of Moses in his statement.   

clark thompson

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 05:29:16 PM »
Salvation provide the heart to do good works by the Spirit working thru us.

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 06:56:55 AM »
Salvation is not of works.

Does this doctrine lead to problems?

Ephesians 2:4-14
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved! 6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in [His] kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation-created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

But on the other hand.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13, and he also says "Do not go beyond what is written." 1 Cor. 4:6

Alexander Winslow

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 09:50:14 AM »
A very intriguing point here concerning salvation of which there are two. The second of which has twp separate designations.

When Christ Jesus was executed at Golgotha as the corresponding 'ransom' for all, in this way salvation was acquired for the whole of the human race from Adamic death [death without a resurrection.] This also opened up the 'second chance' of the acquisition of salvation from imperfection and death for the whole of the human race by way of that 'ransom' sacrifice.

This salvation however is divided into two sections, one is heavenly and one is earthly; depending on one's status. the heavenly one is for the anointed heavenly 'little flock' chosen by Jesus to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs (Luke 12:32)

The heavenly one has already been accomplished and these are now ruling in the heavens as immortal spirit creatures along with Christ, waiting for the next move.

The earthly one is for all the rest of mankind who survive the end of the Sabbath Millennium of the Christ.

So no-one today or before, outside of that heavenly 'little flock' can say at the moment whether they will receive salvation until this appointed time.

Alexander





Fat

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 10:36:11 AM »
'little flock'

Of course the number is 144,000. Jewish males.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.


Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Alexander Winslow

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 06:54:36 PM »
Hello Fat,

Wrong again, the 'little flock' does consist of 144,000 but not of the natural nation of Israel. It does indeed name the twelve tribes in Revelation 7 but this is the twelve tribes of the 'Israel of God' because Almighty God cast off the nation of natural Israel in 607 BCE and they were led into captivity.

When after their release under  Cyrus the Persian they were eventually allowed to rebuild the Temple, but the Shekinah Light which denoted God's presence; never returned. This is why later Jesus said to them "Look! Your house is abandoned to you!"

On choosing the nucleus of his 'little flock' he said to his Apostles who were all Jews: "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews] these also I must bring; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd."

Notice he said that they would become one flock and one shepherd, not one flock 'under' one shepherd. This is because as the Israel of God they will eventually shepherd all the nations during the Sabbath Millennium of the Christ.

Alexander







Bob

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 11:11:53 PM »
Hello Fat,

Wrong again, the 'little flock' does consist of 144,000 but not of the natural nation of Israel. It does indeed name the twelve tribes in Revelation 7 but this is the twelve tribes of the 'Israel of God' because Almighty God cast off the nation of natural Israel in 607 BCE and they were led into captivity.

When after their release under  Cyrus the Persian they were eventually allowed to rebuild the Temple, but the Shekinah Light which denoted God's presence; never returned. This is why later Jesus said to them "Look! Your house is abandoned to you!"

On choosing the nucleus of his 'little flock' he said to his Apostles who were all Jews: "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews] these also I must bring; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd."

Notice he said that they would become one flock and one shepherd, not one flock 'under' one shepherd. This is because as the Israel of God they will eventually shepherd all the nations during the Sabbath Millennium of the Christ.

Alexander







Not joining the conversation but I what to capture this post before it disappears.

Moss

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Re: Salvation is not of works
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 05:16:27 PM »
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


Galatians 1:6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;