Author Topic: The doctrine of the Trinity  (Read 13854 times)

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macuser

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The doctrine of the Trinity
« on: July 01, 2013, 03:25:54 PM »
There are those that say the word trinity is not in the Bible. Yet most Christians believe in the existence of one God in three forms or persons.

clark thompson

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 04:14:46 PM »
The word is not found in the bible but, the bible does say the Word is God and Jesus is the Word.

Fat

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 04:29:49 PM »
The word is not found in the bible but, the bible does say the Word is God and Jesus is the Word.

Clark you must read the same Bible I read, but in some of the Bibles it says something different in John 1.

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.   That little gem is from the New World translation.


michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 05:11:56 PM »
john 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I would say that I do not believe in the trinity but I firmly believe the bible is clear that Jesus  was God and it is a concept that no one can really explain perfectly so we call it the trinity to give it a label

macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 06:32:22 PM »
Michaelf

 I think that I will try a little logic here.  You agree that Christ was God. We also know that Christ was continually calling God His Father. But on the other hand Christ was conceived by the Holy Ghost. How could this be unless They were One? The Son is God and the Spirit is God.   :o

Matthew 1:18 NAS
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows : when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 04:37:24 PM »
Rom 8:10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
To Be a Christian one has to believe that Jesus IS the Christ (Tick)
In his wisdom God chose to describe himself is as "three in One" but we glean it from multiple passages across the bible. However as it was not declared like that by God I do not declare it either.

Are there multiple aspects/persons within the God head - it would appear so yes. Are there only 3 ? It does not say so. three are talked about.  Do I understand that? NO.  If my understanding differs from the bible then my understanding in faulty.  I can live with that.  Does God give us a label to define the God head structure - not that I am aware of, No. 
If God chose not to declare it is it ok for people to make assumptions and give it a label - Risky and unwise.   Is it essential to acknowledge a trinity to be a believer -verse please......No.



michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 04:42:34 PM »
my bad

Rom 10:9 Sorry

macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 04:56:18 PM »
Is it essential to acknowledge a trinity to be a believer -verse please......No.

Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.

michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 05:17:50 PM »
Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.

Agree it is essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ. 

Interestingly I cannot find the HS being worshiped - prayed to - talked to.

Again I acknowledge my understanding is reaching to its limits as to why and then beyond because it does not make sense to me but I can be content in my lack of understanding.

macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 05:34:31 PM »
Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.

Agree it is essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ. 

Interestingly I cannot find the HS being worshiped - prayed to - talked to.

Again I acknowledge my understanding is reaching to its limits as to why and then beyond because it does not make sense to me but I can be content in my lack of understanding.

Paul spoke of many mysteries in time we will know, be patient  :)

Colossians 2
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 06:08:53 PM »
 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

calluna

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 09:28:18 AM »
There are those that say the word trinity is not in the Bible. Yet most Christians believe in the existence of one God in three forms or persons.

Forms, maybe. The word 'person' means 'individual'; that which cannot be divided, a singularity. To take personal responsibility means that responsibility is not shared with any other. So surely, if people believe in a pantheon of three persons, they are polytheist. To say, "Three persons in one person," or "Three persons are one person," or "Three persons is one person," which is in effect what Trinitarianism states, is gobbledegook. It doesn't even make grammatical sense. Or mathematical sense. No wonder a million priests have called it 'a mystery'! No doubt some evangelicals say that they believe in 'the Trinity', but they have not actually thought about it.

It's actually more of a myth, not a mystery. There are over 700,000 words in the Bible, and not one of them can be translated as 'trinity'; and nowhere is deity said to exist in more than one person. On the contrary:

'"You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."' Isa 44:8 NIV

The nearest word for this purpose one can get from the Bible, OT and NT, translates to something like 'face' or 'presence', and the Greek use, prosopa, or faces, from πρόσωπον, was used even by the false teachers who displaced apostolic teaching by dint of imperial appointment. The Greek word can translate to personas or personae (plural of persona), the Latin form of the Greek now used in English. So one may reasonably talk of the personas of the one deity, in reference to God as Father and Holy Spirit because of atonement, atonement achieved by the Son. All of one person! Jesus claimed to possess all three of them when he commanded the disciples to baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His emphasis here was not at all on water baptism, but on his own utter and total authority, now his because he had completed atonement. Trinitarians tend to reverse that emphasis, in practice.

So Trinitarianism is ok provided it does not indicate that three discrete, individual beings are all divine. But in practice it very rarely does not do so, imv. It seems to be used by people who favour works justification, and do not savour talk of the gospel. The Christian, otoh, talks about Christ, and his gospel that sets the sinner free, by faith. Jesus, Paul, John, James and Jude, as well as Moses and the prophets, taught 'the whole will of God' without using this word, and its use should therefore be regarded with suspicion.

macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »

'"You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."' Isa 44:8 NIV



Interesting point if there is only one God, and Christ is God then they must be the same.

Fat posted a the thread earlier concerning a similar analogy on our Savior. The Old Testament tells us that there is only one Savior, and that Savior is God. Later on in the New Testament we see that that Savior is Jesus Christ. How could this be unless they are the same?


OT

Isaiah 43:11 NAS
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior ; There is none except Me.

NT

Luke 2:11 NAS
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Acts 13:23 NAS
"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

calluna

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »
Interesting point if there is only one God, and Christ is God then they must be the same.

Fat posted a the thread earlier concerning a similar analogy on our Savior. The Old Testament tells us that there is only one Savior, and that Savior is God. Later on in the New Testament we see that that Savior is Jesus Christ. How could this be unless they are the same?

OT

Isaiah 43:11 NAS
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior ; There is none except Me.

NT

Luke 2:11 NAS
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Acts 13:23 NAS
"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

That's a good piece of exegesis, thank you.

Frank T

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 11:07:50 AM »
Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?

Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing  that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?