Author Topic: The doctrine of the Trinity  (Read 13864 times)

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JB Horn

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2013, 04:23:51 PM »
Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?

Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing  that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?

No to first quest which makes it Yes on part two.

The only real good reason to believe in the Trinity is it makes the rest of the Bible flow without having contradictions. Without believing in the Trinity becomes very hard to make sense of the Scriptures.
Look at what the JW's had to do to their Bible to make it make halfway sense and it still has many contradictions.

That is my humble opinion but I'm sure somebody else has other beliefs. >:(

michaelf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2013, 05:43:11 PM »
If belief in things not said plainly in the bible was a requirement to be a christian them there would be no security in Salvation.

Stick to Jesus is the Christ
His death an Resurrection for payment of Sin
Salvation through faith in Him alone
Repent and Believe

No mention of trinity here
EVERYTHING ELSE is extra(non essential) to that(not that you should ignore everything else but it is not a requirement for salvation)


macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 10:44:45 PM »
Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?

Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing  that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?
Frank
I agree with JB and Michaelf but I would like to add that after a time of being a Christian and being in His word, you come to understand the deity of Christ. The big mystery that I see is how come some whole denominations can't come to the same conclusion?  :-\

calluna

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 09:59:26 AM »
Frank
I agree with JB and Michaelf but I would like to add that after a time of being a Christian and being in His word, you come to understand the deity of Christ.

Or perhaps, having read my explanation, one will have better understood the deity of Christ. One cannot agree with it and agree that trinitarianism assists to understand the Bible! One of the demonic lies of trinitarians is that they present JW Arianism as the only alternative. Of course, it is plainly Satanic as well as unutterably brainless to suggest that the sovereign deity and his many authors all failed to provide a key without which it is very hard to understand the Bible. But then it is surprising how often Satan is driven to apparent idiocy.

Quote
The big mystery that I see is how come some whole denominations can't come to the same conclusion?  :-\

There is a correlation between those apparent Protestants who accept or even promote the trinitarianism heresy of three persons of deity and those who are reluctant to identify the evils of Romanism, the source of this and many other heresies. For evangelicals who accept this heresy without thought, there are few serious consequences. But in less educated countries, this tritheism permits Jesus to be demoted within the 'Godhead', and even below Mary, Queen of Heaven (who is presumably married to the Father!). By pictorial as well as by verbal means, Jesus is made to seem ineffective, lacking 'all authority'. He is made to seem an other-worldly aesthete, even effeminate; certainly not the plain-speaking, compassionate, practical man of the gospels.

Greed and perversion have their eternal reward.

Frank T

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 11:08:21 AM »
Or perhaps, having read my explanation, one will have better understood the deity of Christ. One cannot agree with it and agree that trinitarianism assists to understand the Bible! One of the demonic lies of trinitarians is that they present JW Arianism as the only alternative. Of course, it is plainly Satanic as well as unutterably brainless to suggest that the sovereign deity and his many authors all failed to provide a key without which it is very hard to understand the Bible. But then it is surprising how often Satan is driven to apparent idiocy.

There is a correlation between those apparent Protestants who accept or even promote the trinitarianism heresy of three persons of deity and those who are reluctant to identify the evils of Romanism, the source of this and many other heresies. For evangelicals who accept this heresy without thought, there are few serious consequences. But in less educated countries, this tritheism permits Jesus to be demoted within the 'Godhead', and even below Mary, Queen of Heaven (who is presumably married to the Father!). By pictorial as well as by verbal means, Jesus is made to seem ineffective, lacking 'all authority'. He is made to seem an other-worldly aesthete, even effeminate; certainly not the plain-speaking, compassionate, practical man of the gospels.

Greed and perversion have their eternal reward.

I don't quite understand your definition of the Trinity. Trinitarianism teaches that God is triune.
And of course they can't be separated, for instance Christ continually refers to His Father but Mary conceive Christ by the Holy Ghost. So is Christ's Father the Holy Ghost?

John 1:1 is very clear to me.

So what do you believe Trinitarianism teaches?

calluna

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2013, 03:58:15 AM »
I don't quite understand

What I mean is that people who replace Christ with Mary, i.e. preach works justification, will wish they had not done so. Hindus preach works justification, but they may do so out of ignorance. But nobody can read the Bible, that from the first word is premised on the choice of faith in a christ, or rejection of that christ, and with innocence believe in works justification.

So any who fail to condemn all of those who knowingly deny the perfect atonement of Jesus, and their polytheism, who also thinks that he or she will be accepted by Jesus, is mistaken.

Frank T

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 09:52:18 AM »
What I mean is that people who replace Christ with Mary, i.e. preach works justification, will wish they had not done so. Hindus preach works justification, but they may do so out of ignorance. But nobody can read the Bible, that from the first word is premised on the choice of faith in a christ, or rejection of that christ, and with innocence believe in works justification.

So any who fail to condemn all of those who knowingly deny the perfect atonement of Jesus, and their polytheism, who also thinks that he or she will be accepted by Jesus, is mistaken.

Well I certainly can't disagree with you. I don't think you will find many on this forum that worship their own works or pray to the dead.

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2014, 07:35:18 PM »
Just a small point on the doctrine of the Satanic Trinity, if indeed Jesus was Almighty God incarnate; then at his death at Golgotha, Satan would have taken over immediately and one would not be having this conversation.

•   1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
•   1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
•   1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
•   1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
•   1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
•   1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
                                                   Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament – Al Quran.

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
                                                                                     Ebrahim Saifuddin — March 3, 2007
To conclude, if Jesus had indeed been Almighty God incarnate, then this would have mad him a combination of two species; thereby rendering him a hybrid mongrel!

Alexander 

biblebuf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2014, 08:23:41 PM »
A
Just a small point on the doctrine of the Satanic Trinity, if indeed Jesus was Almighty God incarnate; then at his death at Golgotha, Satan would have taken over immediately and one would not be having this conversation.

•   1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
•   1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
•   1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
•   1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
•   1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
•   1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
                                                   Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament – Al Quran.

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
                                                                                     Ebrahim Saifuddin — March 3, 2007
To conclude, if Jesus had indeed been Almighty God incarnate, then this would have mad him a combination of two species; thereby rendering him a hybrid mongrel!

Alexander 
And the bibles that translate this corruption, I know of only one the NWT. (revised AGAIN in 2013)

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2014, 06:57:44 AM »
This is why I also posted the other translations which actually is a small section of a larger list showing the correct translation according to the original Greek. The foundational teaching of Christendom is the 'Trinity', while the foundational teaching of the Bible is the 'Ransom' without which nothing would be accomplished.

As  Al Quran states: "It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament."

This corruption of Bible texts and words has been going on now since the Emperor Theodosius I declared that "All those embracing the Trinity, shall henceforth be known as Catholic." while the original movement 'The Way' (Acts 19:9,) was still teaching that Jesus is the 'Son of God' as identified by Peter in Matthew 16:16.

Because people today will not check these things for themselves from the originals, these false doctrines are allowed to continue. If all things were equal, the whole of creation would collapse, creation is not built on 'equality' but 'balance'!

If the Word and Almighty God were both 'equal' then God would cease to be 'Almighty' which means 'without equal'!

In contrast to this to this false Trinitarian claim of equality, the only-begotten Son of God, the first-born of all creation, the Word; “although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTCS [correct scripture]

Alexander

 

biblebuf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2014, 09:14:13 AM »
Quote from: Alex
“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC
S

I'm sorry Alex but you own chosen scriptures confirm the Trinity.

who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form, (HCS)

The real problem you are going to run into is explaining why a sacrifice of and unblemished lamb (a creation of the Father) is less acceptable than (a god).

Next you must explain how you get around, "have no other god before Me".

Next please explain why the OT claims that only the Father is your savior and there is non-other but the NT clearly teaches that Christ is your savior non-other.


Your chosen verses are correct and I suggest you take them at face value and quit rewriting them in your own mind.


BB

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2014, 06:28:34 PM »
Hello biblebuf,

A pleasure to converse with you. There is not one scripture which I have quoted that confirms the Trinity except perhaps in your own mind.

The only-begotten Son of God, the first-born of all creation, the Word; “although existing in the spirit form of God; never developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTCS

So how do you make a Trinity out of that one?

He 'never' developed a desire to become 'equal' with Almighty God, but instead became even 'lower' than the angels when he took on the form of a perfect man like Adam.

You then state: "The real problem you are going to run into is explaining why a sacrifice of and unblemished lamb (a creation of the Father) is less acceptable than (a god)."

Evidently you do not understand what this is all about. The issue between Satan and Almighty God is that God could not put a perfect man on the earth like Adam who would remain obedient unto death!

If Jesus had been a 'god-man' as the Trinitarians claim 'God the Son', then the sacrifice would immediately become invalid. Jesus had to provide a 'corresponding' ransom to Adam for it to be acceptable. It was not a god-man that Satan turned away from Almighty God, but a perfect human.

Also, as Almighty God is immortal, he therefore is indestructible and cannot die!

So if Jesus had been 'God the Son' he would still be hanging there!

I do not wish to sound superior here, but have you ever studied the Bible including God's prophetic pattern and parallel content?

The whole point of a sacrificial lamb goes back to the incident in Egypt when on the evening before the Israelite nation moved out, each family had to sacrifice a lamb and smear its blood on the door post so that when the angel of death passed over, none of their first-born would be killed.

Now the significance of this is that this was a foreshadow of a greater fulfillment when years later, the Lamb of God was executed at Golgotha and his blood stained the post on which he died, so that the angel of Adamic death would pass over the whole of mankind and cancel out death without a resurrection while at the same time opening up the the sure and certain hope of a resurrection to the opportunity of everlasting life.

The scriptural confirmation of this is given to us in the words of the Apostle Paul: "Christ our passover has been sacrificed. (1 Corinthians 5:7)

The statement "That you shall have no other Gods before me." is Almighty God instructing the natural nation of Israel at that time to observe this while they were under the hand of God.

As it happens, three Gods are actually identified in the Bible:

Almighty God who is without equal. (Exodus 6:3)

The Mighty God and Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

The god of this present world order. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Your next comment, I have already covered; Almighty God is saviour who has provided the instrument of salvation Christ Jesus. So each one in his own capacity.

Your last comment, I do not re-write anything, you are simply failing to understand the significance of what is being said. Like Christendom, you seem to be trying to fit the scriptures around you own ideas.

Alexander









 





biblebuf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2014, 06:45:46 PM »
“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC
I'll try this one more time for you.

“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC

Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (NAS) most accrete translation

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 06:13:13 PM »
Hello biblebuf,

I am not sure what you are trying to read into the scriptures which you have again quoted; but if you read them carefully; they destroy the Trinity in one go. The quote which you have stated is in the old archaic language which detracts from the sense in which it is written in the Greek.

“although existing in the spirit form of God;" is informing us that like Almighty god, he was created as a spirit creature as opposed to man later who was human. Also like Adam and the rest of us, he posses the same four attribute as Almighty God; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom as portrayed by the four creatures around the throne of God in Revelation 4:7

In this way he existed in the 'form' of God, therefore he was no God.

Satan has really got you on this one!

If all the working parts in a watch were 'equal', when wound up it would certainly run; but it would never keep time! Balance is the 'key' to creation; not 'equality'!

Remember, if God had an equal; then he could no longer be Almighty God which means 'without equal'!

Alexander

biblebuf

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2014, 07:12:34 PM »
Hello Alexander

Hello biblebuf,

I am not sure what you are trying to read into the scriptures which you have again quoted; but if you read them carefully; they destroy the Trinity in one go. The quote which you have stated is in the old archaic language which detracts from the sense in which it is written in the Greek.

“although existing in the spirit form of God;" is informing us that like Almighty god, he was created as a spirit creature as opposed to man later who was human. Also like Adam and the rest of us, he posses the same four attribute as Almighty God; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom as portrayed by the four creatures around the throne of God in Revelation 4:7

In this way he existed in the 'form' of God, therefore he was no God.

Satan has really got you on this one!

If all the working parts in a watch were 'equal', when wound up it would certainly run; but it would never keep time! Balance is the 'key' to creation; not 'equality'!

Remember, if God had an equal; then he could no longer be Almighty God which means 'without equal'!

Alexander

“although existing in the spirit form of God;" NOT “although existing in the spirit form of a god;"

This from the man who believes that Hosea 12:9 is evidence that the Creator built the Great Pyramid.

PS. I search to find your translation NMTC on line and could not find it. Could you direct me to it please.