Author Topic: The doctrine of the Trinity  (Read 27012 times)

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Fat

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2014, 09:00:00 am »
There are 3 Persons in the Godhead.
God the Father is not the Son.
They are 1 minded, 1 of spirit. - John 17.
Gen 19:24  Then the LORD (Jesus) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (the Father) out of heaven.
The greatest of God’s revelation to man is the Father – Son relationship, that there are 3 Persons in the Godhead and how They function as a unity.  They who know God not in truth, show that they do not have the Spirit of God.  For the Holy Spirit has come  to lead us in all truth – John16:13. 


Eph 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


JB Horn

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2014, 09:06:10 am »
There are 3 Persons in the Godhead.
God the Father is not the Son.
They are 1 minded, 1 of spirit. - John 17.
Gen 19:24  Then the LORD (Jesus) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (the Father) out of heaven.
The greatest of God’s revelation to man is the Father – Son relationship, that there are 3 Persons in the Godhead and how They function as a unity.  They who know God not in truth, show that they do not have the Spirit of God.  For the Holy Spirit has come  to lead us in all truth – John16:13. 


Isaiah 43:10, 11


macuser

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2014, 10:39:32 am »
Hello JITC

I can't quite determine, from your post, if you believe Christ to
be a created being or not.


Mac

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2014, 05:05:10 pm »
Hello  Trinitarians,

Here is something to consider:

The Bible is one Bible [The inspired Word of God]
It has one foundational doctrine [The Ransom]
It has one Thread [The Kingdom Seed]
It has one hope [A ‘second’ chance for ‘all’ mankind of everlasting life on the Earth]

Now this is not some man-made ideal here, this is what has actually been gleaned from a thorough examination of the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. On this foundation stands the Word of God!

On this foundation, Jesus and his Apostles taught the Kingdom Good News for all mankind. This has never altered!

Now the Trinitarians and others of the same disposition, claim that Jesus was actually ‘God the Son’ and that while on earth he was also Almighty God incarnate. Therefore to prove this, three scriptures confirming this are required.

(1)   The scripture containing the word Trinity.
(2)   The scripture containing the phrase ‘God the Son’.
(3)   The scripture containing the phrase ‘God incarnate’.

So far, no such scriptures have been found in the Holy Bible; irrespective of translation!

Alexander

Fat

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2014, 05:17:29 pm »
Hello  Trinitarians,

Here is something to consider:

The Bible is one Bible [The inspired Word of God]
It has one foundational doctrine [The Ransom]
It has one Thread [The Kingdom Seed]
It has one hope [A ‘second’ chance for ‘all’ mankind of everlasting life on the Earth]

Now this is not some man-made ideal here, this is what has actually been gleaned from a thorough examination of the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. On this foundation stands the Word of God!

On this foundation, Jesus and his Apostles taught the Kingdom Good News for all mankind. This has never altered!

Now the Trinitarians and others of the same disposition, claim that Jesus was actually ‘God the Son’ and that while on earth he was also Almighty God incarnate. Therefore to prove this, three scriptures confirming this are required.

(1)   The scripture containing the word Trinity.
(2)   The scripture containing the phrase ‘God the Son’.
(3)   The scripture containing the phrase ‘God incarnate’.

So far, no such scriptures have been found in the Holy Bible; irrespective of translation!

Alexander

Quote from: mark 10 & Luke 18
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Hello Prof. Winslow
Could you please explain to me why you think Christ is not good, thank you.

By the way how is your Bible going have you finished it? And is the word Bible in the Bible?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 05:19:28 pm by Fat »

JB Horn

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 10:16:58 am »
Quote
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Fat, good point and one seldom made, Christ is declaring His deity here.

Fat

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2015, 09:44:40 am »
I found this on the Internet and it is not sourced. I don't know who to credit it to, please if you know post the author.

Quote
In the beginning (en arch). Arch is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Genesis 1:1 . But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. Was (hn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse John 1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Genesis 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesqai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence). The Word (o logo). Logo is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logo is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatiko logo for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:23 . Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John's standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logo, but not John's conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logo is applied to Christ only in John 1:1 John 1:14 ; Revelation 19:13 ; 1 John 1:1 "concerning the Word of life" (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of "the Word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 . But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul ( 2 Corinthians 8:9 ; Philippians 2:6 ; Colossians 1:17 ) and in Hebrews 1:2 and in John 17:5 . This term suits John's purpose better than sopia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos "became flesh" (sarx egeneto, verse John 14 ) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once. With God (pro ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pro with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of pro: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklhton ecomen pro ton patera). See proswpon pro proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12 ), a triple use of pro. There is a papyrus example of pro in this sense to gnwston th pro allhlou sunhqeia, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pro here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom. And the Word was God (kai qeo hn o logo). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying o qeo hn o logo. That would mean that all of God was expressed in o logo and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (o logo) and the predicate without it (qeo) just as in John 4:24 pneuma o qeo can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1 John 4:16 o qeo agaph estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar_, pp. 767f. So in John 1:14 o Logo sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.

Domenic

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Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2015, 02:31:12 pm »
John 1:14-18
Revelation, Jesus Christ—God’s presence became a human being and revealed the fullness of God’s identity in flesh. The glory of God (Ex 33:22 ) became visible as grace and truth which all people need. He is a greater revelation than Moses’ Law which revealed God’s guidelines for life. He shows those guidelines can really be lived out in human flesh on earth. He is God in flesh letting us see what otherwise was impossible to see.
(DSB)

Merry Christmas

ZLaw

Jesus is the son of God...first born of all creation...it was jesus who came in the flesh, not God.

Zant Law

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2015, 02:57:05 pm »
Jesus is the son of God...first born of all creation...it was jesus who came in the flesh, not God.



Quote
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John‬ 1‬:1-3‬ NASB)

So He created Himself?

ZLaw

Domenic

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2015, 04:01:43 pm »


So He created Himself?

ZLaw

Well, lets look at a few things Jesus said, and what God said.

1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.

These are just a few off the top of my head.


Zant Law

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2015, 05:26:43 pm »
Well, lets look at a few things Jesus said, and what God said.

1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.

These are just a few off the top of my head.

The KJV:   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made .

And He (Christ) is the radiance of His (Father) glory and the exact representation of His (Father) nature, and upholds all things by the word of His (Son) power. When He had made purification of sins, He (Son) sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"  And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Do you understand the concept of God becoming flesh? Do you understand that the sacrifice of a created being will not cover your sins. Is Christ NOT good in your mind?

You made him lower than the angels for a short time; You crowned him with glory and honor
But we do see Jesus- made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone-crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.

We have a thread going on this subject that will keep us from rehashing points already made on this forum.
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,653.60.html

Zant Law

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Re: The doctrine of the Trinity
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2015, 05:32:32 pm »
I found this on the Internet and it is not sourced. I don't know who to credit it to, please if you know post the author.

Robertsons word pictures
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-1-1.html

Domenic

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2015, 11:47:37 pm »
ZANT,

Your post does not answer these:

1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.

1) Jesus is not saying, "I am greater than I."
2) Jesus is not saying, "Why do you call me good? Only I am good."
3) Jesus is not saying, " Self, why have you forsaken yourself."
4) Jesus did not pry to himself.
5) God did not say, "This is my beloved me."
6) Jesus was created...the first born. God was not created, or born.

Yes Jesus was a God. The word God is a title, not a name. Satan is the God of this system of things. God has a name, YHWH.

Zant Law

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2015, 12:19:27 am »
Not going to redo that thread so here is a cut n' paste (not my work) Your bible is in conflict with its self because of it's interpretation of John 1

Jesus, Who is He?
Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time.  He is both God and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9).  This is called the Hypostatic Union.
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).
"He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8)."
In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).
Jesus is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6).
Jesus is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).
Jesus is called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17).
Verses showing Jesus is divine
He is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8).
John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us . . . "
This shows that Jesus is God in flesh.
If you say that John 1:1 should be "a" god, then . . .
If Jesus is "a" god, then isn't that polytheism?
If Jesus is "a" god, then how many gods are there in JW theology?
If Jesus is "a" god, then is he a true God or false god since the Bible says there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8)? If Jesus is "a" god, then why does he tell people to come to him and not the Father (Matt. 11:28)?

John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'" With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself.
If you say that the verse is really "I have been," then why did the Jews want to kill
him
--especially when in John 10:30-33 they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God?  Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?
John 10:30-33, "'I and the Father are one.' 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
Re:  John 10:30-33, What was Jesus saying that caused the Jews to accuse Jesus of claiming to be God?  If you can't say, then you don't know the text or the culture well enough to address the issue of Christ's deity.
John 20:28
In John 20:28, Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God." If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not correct Thomas? Three verses later it says that this is written, so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.
Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."
Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever
and ever . . . "
If Jesus is not God, why does God Himself call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
This is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which has the best translation of "Thy Throne O
God . . . "
Other Verses
John 10:30-33, "'I and the Father are one.' 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
Notice the Jews said, "You being a man, make yourself out to be God."  What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to say that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 10:30-33?  If you don't know, then you don't understand.
Regarding John 10:30-33, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are agreeing with the Jews who killed Christ because they did not accept who He really was.
Col. 1:15-16, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."
Firstborn is a transferrable title and does not necessitate being first created.  Proof of this can be seen where Manasseh is the first born (Gen. 41:51-52) and then his brother Ephraim is called the firstborn (Jer. 31:9).
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fathers house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn."
1 Cor. 1:2, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ their Lord and ours."
Why is the phrase, "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God in the OT and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (Greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
The LXX is the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament done by Jews around 200 B.C.
Psalm 116:4, "Then I called upon the name of the Lord [YHWH]: "O Lord [YHWH], I beseech Thee, save my life!"
The literal translation of 1 Cor. 1:2 is " . . . call upon the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ."
Son of God, Son of Man
Does the term "Son of God" mean that Jesus is not God? If so, then does the term "Son of Man" mean that Jesus is not a man?
Likewise, if the term "Son of Man" means that Jesus is a man, then what does the term "Son of God" imply?
The Resurrection of Christ
Jesus rose in the same body that He died in (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:36-43). Jesus' body is resurrected. We do not know exactly what His body is like, but the nature of the resurrected body is discussed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:35-58.
John 2:19-21, "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.' 20 The Jews replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days? 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body."
Luke 24:39,  "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
Right now Jesus is in heaven still as, and eternally to be, both God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9).
This is important because Jesus is the High Priest forever: "where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 6:20). A spirit cannot be a high priest; only a man can do that. Furthermore, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us: "Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:25).

Domenic

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Re: Re: God’s presence became human
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2015, 06:07:03 am »

When Jesus was in Jerusalem, 3,000 people were baptized. Jesus said to his father (YHWH),  “Let these be one with me, as I am one with you.”  Are those 3,000 also God?
You referred to the  JW bible in your last post. You should not assume I am a JW…I am not. I am a member of no religion. I believe in God the father, YHWH, his son, my Lord Jesus, Gods written word, and the scrolls the bible was taken from.
Since the scrolls are what the bible is taken from, the two should match, word for word. I have examined copies of the scrolls…these scrolls are the apex of Gods word. When they found, and examined the dead sea scrolls (which are older than the scrolls they took the bible from) they  were over joyed the match was perfect. The only difference they found, is the bible did have some changes.
Have you read the scrolls?  You should read them.  Some 50 books were left out of the bible. Books that were used by Christians in Jesus day. One is the books of Enoch. Enoch is in the bible 3 times. He was the 7th from Adam, and the great grandfather of Noah. Enoch was loved by God. In his scrolls he tells  what took place before the flood, and who did what.
I am not trying to change how, or what you believe. I simply asked a question. What I posted is in the bible, and also in the scrolls. Somehow the scrolls do not match what religions are teaching. Thus I find I must follow what the scrolls say.

Read, and think on these again. Ask, "Why do they not match other scriptures I have read? What do the scrolls say?"


1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.

1) Jesus is not saying, "I am greater than I."
2) Jesus is not saying, "Why do you call me good? Only I am good."
3) Jesus is not saying, " Self, why have you forsaken yourself."
4) Jesus did not pry to himself.
5) God did not say, "This is my beloved me."
6) Jesus was created...the first born. God was not created, or born.

Yes Jesus was a God. The word God is a title, not a name. Satan is the God of this system of things. God has a name, YHWH.