What about those who have never heard the gospel?

[Jack Koons]

• 

Zant,

I want you to know my motive here. I mean no one any disrespect. It is not my intention to accuse anyone of anything.

When I say I know I deserve to go to Hell, I am simply telling the truth. That is what makes "grace" so wonderful! I have received, and continue to receive His wonderful grace! Year by year, day by day, minute by minute, and sometimes in my darkest hour, second by second! God has given me what I do not deserve, Eternal Life; and through His grace He has given me something more, His mercy. In that mercy He has withheld His righteous hand of judgement, not sending me to Hell as I deserve. His mercies are new every morning! All this He gives me by His gracious love!

Is it wise to say I deserve He'll? Absolutely! Anything else would be a lie. Do I understand grace you ask? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but because I see the greatness of my sin, I therefore see that His grace is greater.

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

Zant,

I want you to know my motive here. I mean no one any disrespect. It is not my intention to accuse anyone of anything.

When I say I know I deserve to go to Hell, I am simply telling the truth. That is what makes "grace" so wonderful! I have received, and continue to receive His wonderful grace! Year by year, day by day, minute by minute, and sometimes in my darkest hour, second by second! God has given me what I do not deserve, Eternal Life; and through His grace He has given me something more, His mercy. In that mercy He has withheld His righteous hand of judgement, not sending me to Hell as I deserve. His mercies are new every morning! All this He gives me by His gracious love!

Is it wise to say I deserve He'll? Absolutely! Anything else would be a lie. Do I understand grace you ask? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but because I see the greatness of my sin, I therefore see that His grace is greater.

Jack

I think it was you who said you were adopted, were you old enough to have a say in your adoption?

[Jack Koons]

• 

"I think it was you who said you were adopted, were you old enough to have a say in your adoption?"

Actually, I said I was a foster child. But you raise an interesting point. To make a long story short, I was placed into the foster home my upbringing at the age of 18 months, and remained there until just after graduating from High School at 18 years old.

At about the age of 9 years old my dad called me off to the side and asked me if I would like to be adopted? My first reaction was to ask him about problems that my biological parents might present. (Yes, even at that age us foster kids were at least somewhat aware of the issues relating to their biological parents.) I'll never forget my dad's response when I said, "Yes"! (He had already knelt down on one knee to talk to me 'face to face'.) He smiled, kissed me on the forehead, and said, "Don't worry about it, I'll take care of everything".

He ran into issues he was not able to overcome, but that didn't matter! I found out that day how much he loved me! Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities.

Take the twelve apostles for example. Did Jesus love Peter, James, and John more than the others? I don't think so. It was not a matter of just how much Jesus loved them; but how much love they returned to Jesus, that put them in the 'inner circle'. Likewise within the 'inner circle', it was John that made it a point to be at the Saviour's side.

God offers the same love to all, we do not all choose to accept it. God's law gives us the opportunity to show our love for Him to the world; it is our choice whether to obey it or not.

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment.

I believe that there was another choice made for you before the foundation of the earth, without your knowledge or consent, that will bless you for eternity. I'm not going to highlight these verses Jack, so that they can be read in context as written down for us to understand.

You made the statement on another thread, "I let the scriptures interpret themselves."

Ephesians 1 KJV

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Nothing should be treated with more honor and reverence than the Word of God; because it both is, and contains the Law of God.

Yet, Origin, Constantine, Semler, and Metzger, all used interpretation and "intellectual" logic to twist and tear away the Holy Scriptures. The good news is that irregardless of the hundreds of attempts by Satan (and those he influences to do his work), to destroy God's word, it remains.

ZLaw

[Jack Koons]

• 

"So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment."

I stated previously:

"Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities. "

Some of the foster children did in fact choose not to live in the home I lived in. (I think they made a bad choice, but it was theirs to make.)

By not agreeing with you on your understanding of scripture, does not imply that I am treating the scripture with disrespect.

You also have sidestepped the issue of Christians being responsible for disobeying the command of God to go into all nations, resulting in people not hearing the gospel.

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

"So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment."

I stated previously:

"Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities. "

Some of the foster children did in fact choose not to live in the home I lived in. (I think they made a bad choice, but it was theirs to make.)

By not agreeing with you on your understanding of scripture, does not imply that I am treating the scripture with disrespect.

You also have sidestepped the issue of Christians being responsible for disobeying the command of God to go into all nations, resulting in people not hearing the gospel.

Jack

I sidestepped the issue! This is the issue Jack what does it say?


You made the statement on another thread, "I let the scriptures interpret themselves."

Ephesians 1 KJV

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Or could it be that the Scriptures are not sufficient for you?

[Jack Koons]

• 

The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?

That is the topic you have been evading at all cost.

Jack

[calluna]

• 

The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?

Surely, those who disobey the Holy Spirit for very long are unlikely to be Christians. God brought Jonah back to do his job, and he does likewise with all his own, sooner or later. Those who stubbornly refuse are for that reason apostates.

There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them.

If the gospel is to be believed, it must be lived, because it is 'caught, not taught'. The best evangelisation today is preaching by example. What is needed is not so much evangelists as those whose fruits of patience, willingness to forgive, kindness and humility quietly attract attention, and prompt others to ask them to 'give the reason for the hope that you have'. Which reason is of course the gospel. As Peter added, there will be slander against those of good behaviour, because it shames those who are being destroyed. But those who truly love God in Jesus will not be deterred by this.

[Jack Koons]

• 

"There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them."

Calluna,

There are two things in the above statement I would like to address:
1) "evangelism is not necessary". Again, Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is not up to us to determine wether or not ANY part of the globe needs to be evangelized; the command is clear: "GO"! Do we really have the right to look up at God and say, "There is no more need". Did God not say, "Occupy till I come". (Luke 19:13)
2) " As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there."
Gal. 1
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Satan would rather people have a perverted gospel, than no gospel. Why? Because people who trust in a false gospel have no idea that the gospel they are trusting in is perverted. When people know they haven't heard the truth, they ate more driven to search for it once the initial idea of a truth has been sparked.

I know I'm going to get in trouble for what I am about to say, but the truth is what it is. The largest so-called "Christian" denomination is the Church of Rome. The problem however, is that Catholic doctrine is a perverted gospel. Its foundation is the Eucharist and the doctrine of transubstantiation. Why did Wycliffe fight this doctrine with all his might? Because he knew it was a perverted gospel. Why did Luther pen his thesis against indulgences? It to was a false gospel. Hence, the breath of God speaks to the Apostle Paul and he penned these words of warning to the Galatians. Are these words any less true today, No.

Not only is evangelism necessary, but a lifestyle that supports that gospel is necessary as well.

The command has been given.

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?

That is the topic you have been evading at all cost.

Jack

OK Jack we'll do it backward for you and attack the last half first.

John 14:15 KJV  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Either you love Christ or you don't.

Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell.

I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.

P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17

[calluna]

• 

"There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them."

Calluna,

There are two things in the above statement I would like to address:
1) "evangelism is not necessary".

It is surely completely redundant, if it is felt necessary to misquote.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Calluna,

The entire sentence written was, "So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."

With people moving around in the world as much as they are today, you have no absolute way to know who has, or hasn't heard what. Unless of course you can give me a scripture reference stating we are no longer obligated to go to a specific region? That was the intent of your statement, was it not?

Jack

[Jack Koons]

• 

Zant stated:

"OK Jack we'll do it backward for you and attack the last half first.

John 14:15 KJV  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Either you love Christ or you don't.

Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell.

I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.

P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17"


Well Zant,

Let's deal with this:

"John 14:15 KJV  If ye love me, keep my commandments."

For this verse you stated:

"Either you love Christ or you don't."

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


The law made up of the commandments. So what your saying is, "Either you love Christ or you don't"; which means, if you keep "all" of the commandments, you love Christ; or if you don't keep "all" the commandments, you don't.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in onepoint, he is guilty of all.


Now Zant, you said, "Either you love Christ or you don't".

So either you keep "all" the commandments, or you don't.

You are presented with two problems: 1) say you keep "all" the commandments, and are without sin (showing that you are 'deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you [1 John 1:8]); or, say that you only offend in one point (or maybe two), and then you end up being guilty of all (James 2:10).

So you're left in a position where either there is no truth in you, or you're a sinner: all to avoid one question: what is the responsibility of not obeying God command to go present the gospel, or what is the consequence of disobedience of the Christian?

"Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

To which you said:

"Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell."

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


This text is very clear; the text presents the working of salvation in reverse order, working from salvation backward:
1) For whosoever shall call upon The Lord shall be saved.
2) They cannot call unless they believe.
3) They cannot believe if they have not heard.
4) They cannot hear without a preacher.
5) The preacher canning preach, unless he is sent.

And what is he preaching?

Eph. 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

6) Not all that hear the "preached" gospel believe. (They must choose to believe, or not believe.)

The conclusion:

7) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Zant, there are the scriptures.

Then you said:

"I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.

P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17"

I just presented scriptures, you never answered my questioned, What is the  consequence of disobeying God in not going and preaching the gospel, causing people not to hear the gospel, resulting in them not being able to be saved?

The Catholic Church is known as the Catholic Church, (you can Google it for yourself if you want to).

Jack

[calluna]

• 

Calluna,

The entire sentence written was, "So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."

So why make up a comment of your own, and put it into quote marks?

Due to the supportive presence of criminals lingering here, you will doubtless remain yourself. But you will have no credibility with others.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Calluna,

I admit that I ACCIDENTALLY misquoted you, because rather than do a "cut and paste", I actually tried to quote you from memory.

My misquote was, "evangelism is not necessary"; the actual statement was,
"So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."

With that said, I believe an explanation (from you) concerning the justification of your actual statement:

"So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."

1) Exactly what part of the world is "the need to evangelize" "not necessary"?
2) What scripture reference do you have to justify this statement?

Jack