Author Topic: The Soul and the Spirit  (Read 8200 times)

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JB Horn

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The Soul and the Spirit
« on: January 18, 2014, 06:35:16 PM »
The Bible teaches us that we have both the soul and the spirit. These verses seem to tell us that they are different even know sometimes in Scripture they seem to be used interchangeably.

Quote
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 1:22-23, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

The two Greek words used in the Bible are defined by Strong's numbers.
Soul (Psuche)
the Soul
   a.  the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   b.  the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   c.  the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death

Spirit (Pneuma)

a.  the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
b.  a human soul that has left the body

Looking at these definitions, in my own mind it appears that the soul only exist with man, but the spirit can exist without man.

Remembering that it is the spirit that regenerates the man and at the same time apparently regenerates the soul. When we are born again in spirit, that spirit is perfect with God and needs no regeneration, however the soul is still with man in the world and needs to be brought closer to God and further from the world.
The spirit is how you relate to God. When you are reborn, you are born of spirit. That spirit is always sinless and God's eyes, and is a completed work.


John 3:5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Fat

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 11:36:19 PM »
1 Corinthians 15:45 (NAS) 

So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Let me take a stab at this.

The first Adam gave us an inheritance of an of a living soul an also doomed us to death. The last Adam gave us an inheritance of a spirit that is ever lasting.

Hal

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 08:58:05 AM »
When God says that He has written His laws on our heart is He talking about the soul or the spirit?

OlympicClimb12

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 01:39:59 PM »
Thanks much to the opening poster. I much appreciate your words and scriptures that helped me to learn something new. I had not realized before that soul and Spirit were different. . . but now that you share this it makes sense to me.

When God tell Adam he would go to the dust again. How is it that in Daniel 12:4 they are raised from the dust? For they were sleeping in the dust. They were not incorruptible yet. They died as corruptible. But the day of the Lord will show for they shall be caught up in a twinkling of an eye and then shall they be incorruptible given a new body that like a Spirit. A Spiritual Body that will never die..

The Promised Body of everlasting life. In this life we are trained to live in the Spirit but that takes using our body, mind, and Soul but the mind is often as our soul our inner self. Sometimes referred as our Heart our inner being. The mind body heart is our soul inner being. The Spirit is our obedience and which becomes the the new spiritual body which is much different than the body we have now.

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 06:27:43 PM »
Thanks to the confusion of the churches of Christendom with their man-made doctrines around which they fit a few scriptures, the issue of the Souls and the Spirit becomes quite confusing and yet it really could not be simpler.

Adam was provided with a perfect human body and then God breathed into him the breath of life and man became a 'living' soul, until then he was a 'dead' soul; that was it! Simple!

Now how do we know that this is all there is to it? Well why do we not let Almighty God provide us with the answer himself?

Most people along with the churches of Christendom and others who do not even acknowledge a particular faith, still believe that they have an immortal soul which somehow leaves the body at the point of death and goes somewhere else.

Yet when we examine the inspired word of God, evidence of this is nowhere to be found, in fact, Almighty God has indeed made a point-blank statement that the truth of this is quite the opposite!

“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

Well, we could not get it any plainer than that, in fact, the statement that at death even the 'thoughts' of the individual perishes; then this cancels out the 'theory' that some spirit entity goes off  somewhere else. Because if it did, then it would know who it is and therefore its thoughts would not have perished!

The Hebrew word for 'soul' is 'nephesh' meaning that which has a need for fair, food and water; in other words the body itself.

So when the body dies ,it is simply the breath of life which returns to God; nothing else!

Alexander












biblebuf

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 06:43:16 PM »
Well, we could not get it any plainer than that, in fact, the statement that at death even the 'thoughts' of the individual perishes; then this cancels out the 'theory' that some spirit entity goes off  somewhere else. Because if it did, then it would know who it is and therefore its thoughts would not have perished!

What makes you think that the thoughts stay with the spirit? Will the sinful thoughts of the saved follow them to God's house ?

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 07:12:53 PM »
biblebuf,

Check my wording, it is the churches of Christendom who state this; not me. In fact, check God's wording; God states that at the moment of death one's thoughts perish immediately and therefore we return to dust just as we have been created.

I can tell by your comment that you have not yet defined the difference between the heavenly anointed 'little flock' (Luke 12:32) the only ones to whom the kingdom belongs, and all the rest of mankind who after death will at the appointed very soon now; receive and earthly resurrection to then be brought up to perfection before the final trial.

Except for this anointed heavenly 'little flock', the nucleus of which was chosen personally by Christ while on earth and later at Pentecost; the Apostle Paul informs us that there will be an earthly resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous which means even then all will still be imperfect and dead in God's eyes.

The scriptural confirmation of this is in Revelation whee it states: Revelation 20:4, 5 “…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] NMTCS

So in the first resurrection these are the ones who like Christ Jesus have died in the flesh but been raised up like him as immortal spirit creatures. Therefore their thoughts are as pure as they were at their choosing. "Many were called, but 'few' chosen for this reason.

The rest of mankind in its imperfect state will over the thousand years be brought up to human perfection but only those who later remain faithful will eventually become alive in God's eyes. This is scripture talking, not me.

Alexander
 





 




biblebuf

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 07:33:49 PM »
Check my wording, it is the churches of Christendom who state this; not me. In fact, check God's wording; God states that at the moment of death one's thoughts perish immediately and therefore we return to dust just as we have been created.

I'm sorry but annihilation is not that in the bible.

 Luke 16:24 KJV
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 07:41:15 PM »
You have a lot to learn my friend, the destruction of Satan and all others who suffer the 'second death' is just another way of saying total annihilation. As for the Abraham/Lazarus account, this is a metaphorical example and not an actuality because Abraham is still dead in the ground; proved by the fact that Jesus is stated as the first-born from the dead!

Alexander

biblebuf

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 08:17:16 PM »
You have a lot to learn my friend, the destruction of Satan and all others who suffer the 'second death' is just another way of saying total annihilation.


Matthew 25:41 KJV
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed , into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:44 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched .

Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29 KJV
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Hebrews 6:2 KJV
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:7 KJV
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication , and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 13:42 KJV
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8 KJV
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee , cut them off , and cast them from thee : it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Fat

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 08:34:24 PM »
As for the Abraham/Lazarus account, this is a metaphorical example and not an actuality because Abraham is still dead in the ground; proved by the fact that Jesus is stated as the first-born from the dead!

Hello Alex

Yes it is a 'metaphorical example', you should take the time to study it.

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented.

My salvation is secure Alex, how about yours?

Add these for thought.

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 19:20 ESV
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 08:43:35 PM by Fat »

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 07:34:31 AM »
Hello Fat,

Thank you for your interesting comment, which is also based on illustrative scriptures and not actual. The reason one can be so confident in this is because as I have already confirmed by the words of Almighty God himself that a 'soul' is not immortal and its thoughts perish at the moment of death.

“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

Now anything opposite to this is in exact contradiction, yet neither Almighty God nor his inspired word the Bible; contradicts. If it did, then it would not be the inspired word of God!

Common sense reasoning also confirms that for anything to be in torment forever and ever would in the first instance need to bee immortal, which contradicts the whole issue. Also, if one had an immortal soul, then when one died, one's soul would automatically go somewhere else so there would have been no need for Christ Jesus to arrive as the anointed Liberator from Adamic death!

You say that your salvation is is secure, secure from what?

I say this because if you have studied the Bible in its entirety, you would know that at this moment in time; the only ones who are 'saved' are Christ's anointed 'little flock' to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs; no one else! (Luke 12:31)

Since Adam, all the rest of mankind right down to today; remains 'dead' in God's eyes. This is confirmed in Jesus' words to one who was ready to follow him as one of the anointed but wished to bury his Father first; to which Jesus replied: "Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead." (Matthew 8:22)

So you see, salvation for the rest of us is still not assured; this is confirmed in Revelation where we read that at the establishment of this anointed 'little flock' who are of the 'first' resurrection:

“…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] (Revelation 20:4, 5) NMTCS

So here we have the Bible confirmation that the rest of the dead [mankind] right back as far as Adam, do not come to life in God's eyes until the end of the Millennial Rule of the Christ. This is actually the whole point of the 'second chance' for the whole of mankind since Adams transgression in Eden.

So bottom line, outside of the anointed heavenly 'little flock'; no one will receive salvation until the end of the Sabbath Millennium when the sheep and the goats are separated and Satan along with the goats  is destroyed.

This is the Bible speaking, not me.

Alexander

 


Fat

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 08:45:48 AM »
Quote
Thank you for your interesting comment, which is also based on illustrative scriptures and not actual. The reason one can be so confident in this is because as I have already confirmed by the words of Almighty God himself that a 'soul' is not immortal and its thoughts perish at the moment of death.

“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

WOW! there cowboy, you lost the right to quote from these translations calling them corrupt.
Quote from:  From your post on    "The doctrine of the Trinity"
As  Al Quran states: "It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament."

Please use القرآن for your reference, sense you trust it as truth over the translations you quoted.

Does the Al Quran and the NMTCS define the second death? We know that the translations you're using here do define the second death, as I posted above.

FYI the most accurate english translate is the NAS. 


Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 09:29:54 AM »
Fat,

So what is your point?

The translations are correct in as much as they follow the original Greek and Hebrew, the point I am making is that anyone who claims the belief in the soul being immortal when Almighty God has declared that it is not; is in exact opposition to him!

Also, I find that many a belief is erroneously stated mainly because the reader has failed to discern the context in which the scripture is written. Remember, the Bible is harmonious throughout; therefore Almighty God will not declare one thing in one place and then contradict it in another. This is why we are counseled by the Apostle Paul to acquire understanding in all things pertaining to the scriptures.

As for the 'second death' I have already defined this along with the New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture [NMTCS],

Oddly enough, although I am not of their persuasion, the most accurate Translation to-date is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture is and independent on-going reference for the whole of the Bible by Squires Publishing.

Check your NAS with Young's Analytical Concordance of the Holy Bible and see how accurately is checks out.

I can tell you now, compared to the NWT and NMTCS; there are many 'errors' in this translation. For instance: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" (Matthew 23:33) NAS

This is an incorrect translation, it should read: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgement of Gehenna?" (Matthew 23:33) NWT NMTCS

The point here is that your Bible like most translations is still using the archaic word 'hell' which has been used for centuries to blanket four different words with three different meanings.

e.g.
(1)   HELL  : (Hebrew - Sheol) The unseen state [grave]
(2)   HELL  : (Greek - Hades)  The unseen world [grave]
(3)   HELL : (Hebrew)  Gehenna (Heb) (Valley of Hinnom) [Second Death]
(4)   HELL : (Greek) Tartarus (To cast down) [Angelic Incarceration]

When I am often asked: "How do I know if I am holding an accurate copy of the Bible?" I reply: "If you can find the 'hell' even once in your translation, you have an inaccurate copy."

Alexander









Fat

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 10:24:06 AM »
When I am often asked: "How do I know if I am holding an accurate copy of the Bible?" I reply: "If you can find the 'hell' even once in your translation, you have an inaccurate copy."

Hell is an English word used as a translation of the word you translate as Gehenna, nothing more. It's like the stake and the cross. the old Greek had no word for cross but history shows us that the Romans of Christ time used a cross.

Let me prove to you that your NWT is flawed, I posted a topic long time back that ask your JW's a question about a major inconsistency in your NWT. It does revolve around John 1 (a god) if you use the NAS you have one Savior and one God but the NWT gives you two of each, which their NWT says can not be.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a savior or do they have two saviors?

From my prior post http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,219.msg698.html#msg698

 As most people know the Jehovah's witnesses have rewritten the Bible for the sole purpose of separating Christ and God the Father. They still do not explain how they can have two saviors when in Isaiah 43:10-11 their own translation says, "YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

 In many verses in their translation of the Bible such as acts 13:23 they refer to the Savior of Israel as Jesus. It is repeated again and acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And in 2 Timothy 1:10 they refer to the Savior as Jesus Christ. There are many more verses in the Bible such as first John 4:14, Titus 2:6-14, acts 4:9-12 Titus 1:1-16, 2 Timothy 1:10. Sometimes when the Savior is being referred to as Christ is in lower case and sometimes it is capitalized apparently for no rhyme or reason. It appears they've concentrated so hard on trying to divide the Father and the Son that they forgot that only one, according to the Father can be the savior of Israel.

1 John 4: (NWT)
14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.

Titus 2: (NWT)
6 Likewise keep on exhorting the younger men to be sound in mind, 7 in all things showing yourself an example of fine works; showing uncorruptness in your teaching, seriousness, 8 wholesome speech which cannot be condemned; so that the man on the opposing side may get ashamed, having nothing vile to say about us. 9 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.

Acts 4 (NWT)
9 if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”