Author Topic: The Soul and the Spirit  (Read 8199 times)

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Fat

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2014, 04:35:41 PM »
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Hello Fat,

Thank you for your comments, although you clearly do not understand the Bible.

You are mixing ancient Law with Christan Truth. You remind me of those in Jesus' day who listened but failed to get the sense of what they heard.

You consider the 10 Commandments ancient law with no relevance today?

Romans 2
   7 eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness; 9 affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 11 There is no favoritism with God. 12 All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. 14 So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them


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For instance, your comment: "The need for Christ is to provide a way for our sins to be covered from the sight of God. Do you know what the Scape Goat represents? You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."

To begin with, the need for Christ was to provide a corresponding ransom for Adamic sin whereby without it we would all be still under the sentence of death without the hope of a resurrection. Also, although the death of Christ would have been sufficient in any way shape or form for the Gentile nations, it had to be exactly in the manner that it was to release the Jew from the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law which condemned them every day for their imperfections.

Is this message only for Jews? Is God's law in your heart?

Galatians 3:13 CSB
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Romans 7:7 CSB
[Sin's Use of the Law] What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.



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The Apostle Paul explains this in his letter to the Hebrews, showing the by his death in the same manner as the sacrifice of the lamb down in Egypt and its blood smeared on the door posts to enable the angel of death to pass over; this was a foreshadow of the execution of the Lamb of God whose blood smeared his instrument of execution thereby releasing the Jew from the curse of the Law and mankind from Adamic death. To confirm this the Apostle Paul states: "Christ our passover has now been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7)

I don’t concede that Paul wrote Hebrews, but it is a moot point.

1 Corinthians 5
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

Sorry again your choice of scripture has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make “releasing the Jew from the curse of the Law and mankind from Adamic death.”



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So toady both the Jew and the Gentile are no longer under either the condemnation of the Mosaic Law nor the condemnation of Adamic death. But except for the anointed 'little flock' chosen specially by Christ, the rest of us still remain 'dead' in God's eyes. (Matthew 8:22)


Matthew 8
21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead." 23 When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him.

 Again you twist in the wind, your verse in not relevant to your point.

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You continue: "Sorry Alex but nothing you have posted supports you conclusion."

On the contrary, so far you have produced nothing scripturally to contradict what I have presented scripturally.

For instance, you state: "You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."

Now I do not know where you have got that one from, but John states: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:

So here John is informing us that while we all remain imperfect this side of Christ's thousand year reign, we will continue to remain imperfect and 'dead' in God's eyes. This is confirmed by the scripture: "The rest of the dead [mankind] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." (Revelation 20:5)

Although we have now come under the grace of God through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus, no salvation will be achieved until after the resurrection and thousand year reign of the Christ. Then at the end of this, those who prove themselves worthy will be given everlasting life on earth; while the rest of unworthy mankind will enter the 'second death' [Gehenna] Revelation 21:8


No one is disputing that salvation comes at the time judgement, for we (Christians) will not be judged for our sins that day. (which is our salvation) But the scripture tell us that we have received that promise.

luke 19
9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

luke 2
29 "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel."

Acts 28:28
"Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles ; they will also listen."

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.



Two things that I draw from your comments. First is you believe there is no consequences at time of judgment. I don't understand why you believe there even has to be a judgment, if that judgment has no consequences to the outcome. If one is to be taken from the ground and then judged and return to the ground.

Second, if you believe that Christ's crucifixion was not to cover all transgressions against the law, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you believe salvation from the law comes from personal conduct, sometimes referred to as works.

I'll post a few verses as you requested and you can point out which verses don't agree with your doctrine and tell me that they are only metaphoric in nature.

This verse is repeated three times in Mark. Also found in Is 66
 
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Your verses:

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;; Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."; Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.; 2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,; Rev 19:20  And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.; Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."; Mat 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth; 1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.; Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'; Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.; Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.; Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?; Jam 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.;

And of course the mother of all metaphoric scripture Luk 16:23-26.

 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

Alexander Winslow

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2014, 06:14:19 PM »
Hello Fat,

Thank you again for your reply and material. The Ten Commandments were given specifically to the nation of Israel along with the rest of the Mosaic Law for te purpose of showing the Jews that as imperfect people they would by no means be able to keep them and so to prevent their being cursed by these perfect laws a Passover sacrifice had to be performed every year as a recompense while the goat of Azazel was used as a carrier of those sins into the wilderness.

Now this actually foreshadowed the greater mediator Christ Jesus who acted both as the goat for Azazel and carried away the curse of Adamic sin and released the Jews from the curse of the Mosaic Law. As the Apostle Paul states: "Christ our passover has no been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7)

So the point here is that anyone who puts himself under the Ten Commandments today, also puts himself squarely back under the Mosaic Law which in the case of a Gentile; this makes his a Jewish proselyte.

Jesus on the other hand gave us instead, two principles by which to live, love Jehovah your God and love your neighbour as yourself. In keeping these two the whole of the law is fulfilled.

The Mosaic Law was a negative statute of things not to do, whereas the new Commandments which Jesus has given us are each of a positive nature. He also gave us an additional Commandment which also was not contained in the Ten Commandments, love on another.

The biggest problem for most people today is that they do not understand the specific reason for Christ Jesus and what he has accomplished for the whole of mankind. The scriptures which you are quoting are excellent, but you seem to be putting your own construction upon them which is not in harmony with the Bible.

You also seem to be missing the points rel event to the scriptures which I have quoted.

The Bible is simple to understand, once one has acquired an accurate knowledge of it from Genesis to Revelation.

You have quoted some scriptures which absolutely confirm what I have posted, but you seem unable to reason this out.

As for Paul, he wrote Hebrews in Rome in A.D. 61, covering an undetermined period. The nature of its content is evidence in itself that this was written specifically for the Hebrew nation but also with the followers of Christ in mind. In fact the pattern and parallel of events which he describes confirms the that all that happened to the nation of Israel while under the hand of God; has been fulfilled by Christ Jesus and other things which have since taken place.

Like the scriptures which you have now quoted, the Mosaic Law which was written along with the Ten Commandments on stone, has now been replaced by these new Commandment Laws which today is written in men's hearts.

Again you have misread my words concerning the sacrifice of Christ which had a two part fulfillment in that as I mentioned; his death in any way shape or form would have been sufficient for us the Gentiles, but as the Jews were already under the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law, then the curse of this Law had to be nailed to a post in the form of a sacrifice and the blood splashed on that post as it was foreshadowed down in Egypt years before and later as the yearly atonement sacrifice for Jewish sin. In fact, this is what the Bible is all about!

It is all there in Romans and Hebrews, too much to post here.

Matthew 8
21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

This scripture is actually very relevant once you understand the position of mankind in the eyes of God since the Edenic episode. In fact this is how we are able to tie in Jesus' words with Revelation 20:5 which confirms the fact that since the episode in Eden, as Paul also says, sin entered into the world through mankind and death through sin. Therefore until mankind again becomes a perfect human race at the end of Christ's thousand year reign, we are all still 'dead' in God's eyes. So I am not twisting in the wind as you put it, unless you can find anything to the contrary. The only point here is that if you can, then the Bible is contradicting itself and therefore not worth the paper it is written on. God however, does not contradict himself.

Now here is an example of your confusion: No one is disputing that salvation comes at the time judgement, for we (Christians) will not be judged for our sins that day. (which is our salvation) But the scripture tell us that we have received that promise.

An excellent scripture, but one one that applies neither to you, me nor anyone outside of the anointed 'little flock'.

They will not be judged for any sins they might have had, because through their being chosen by Christ Jesus to rule in the heavens; they are the ones who will be doing the judging!

This is what I find with the churches and most people today, they quote scriptures out of context and in accord with the wrong individuals. Because of this, they remain divided!

The point I made concerning a so-called immortal soul is born out by Almighty God himself who  confirms that there is no such thing: "“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

If there was, he would never have mad this statement, which as I also pointed out that if some of the scriptures reasoned by you concerning everlasting punishment in 'hell' as the churches put it; then one would have to be immortal to last forever!

Common sense and reasoning is something the churches are very short of!

You quote scriptures, but without explanation they are not of much worth due to the necessity of identification of application and context.

Alexander
























 







































admin

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Re: The Soul and the Spirit
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2014, 12:11:48 AM »
This thread is closed because has become circular.

Note to those who are trying to make sense of this: Atheist believe in the annihilation of the human being at the time of death, this is no different than an animal dying. If Alexander was correct it means a nonbeliever could not sin in the eyes of God, for nonbeliever would not be under the laws of Moses nor under the commandments of Christ to His followers. The belief in annihilation gives comfort to those who do not believe the gospel in the same way it gives comfort to those who do not believe in a creator.

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:08:49 AM by admin »