Author Topic: Your kind of Rapture or not  (Read 4478 times)

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Moss

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2014, 11:41:49 AM »
So when is the end of the church ( gentile) age? How does it come about?

Luke 21:24
Rom 11:25

OlympicClimb12

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2014, 01:00:25 PM »
I would like to post several end time views. I would like to title this post the Important Questions and the
Parable of the Fig Tree.

First I would like to make a brief mention that my intention of sharing Bible prophecy is helping family and friends
and fellow Christians to make one ready. So this actually means when I share it’s from heart because I do care.

Now the only reason why I mention those like Tim La Hayes is mostly because his teaching is the way I began,
For 13 years I believed pre trib and supported it 100%. About 3 ½ years ago I changed my view because now that I try to read the Bible including all verses in each chapter. The pre trib rapture view made no sense to me.
For if I listen to the Bible only and not some popular teacher it only means I want to listen to God first.
I also want to say most post trib believers I know today were also once pre trib believers. So my case isn’t unique. For it’s common for pre trib to switch over to mid trib or post trib once they see pre trib doesn’t have all the explanations.

I think what’s important in Matthew 24 the very questions that the disciples had asked Jesus. What will be the signs of the end of the age and the signs of your second appearing? Jesus didn’t say there would not be any signs. Then he mentions earthquakes, pestilences, and famines. But yet is not the end. Then kingdom will be against kingdom and nation will be against nation. These are the signs of the birth pains for even the love of many will grow cold.
Then Jesus said the Gospel shall be preached throughout the world and then shall come the end.

It’s very important to take notice at this point because in Jesus testimony all verses before the mentioning of the abomination speaks of no gathering. Jesus here is speaking in plain words because Jesus told them I have told you things plainly but to them I have told them parables. So I think it is biblically incorrect to try to squeeze in a secret rapture not mentioned at this point.
Some like to use the thief in the night but I’m going to share what the thief in the night actually means.
So the gathering is not mentioned until verses 30 and 31.  We see no mention of God’s wrath at this point which may become confusing until one should realize that God often repeats himself because 30 and 31 are the very same signs spoken in the 6th seal of Revelation. The sun not giving its light also means the sun is black as sackcloth. The moon not giving its light also means the moon shall be as blood. And the heavens shaken and the stars falling to Earth means that the fig tree is blown and the figs shall fall upon the Earth. But these are stars that are actually called meteorites.

This is where it brings us to the parable of the fig tree. For some teach this has to do with the 1948 and 1967 establishment of Israel. But if we read every parable before the fig tree it all leads back to the questions that the disciples asked Jesus about the signs. So when Jesus says when you see all these things you know the time and the summer is near and at the door. The things that Jesus is talking about has nothing to do with new born Israel but only the signs of the end of the age that the summer is near so that we can understand the parable of the fig tree.  So when we see the fig tree these represent the signs and that is when we will know for sure without a doubt that in those days Jesus second appearance is about to happen. But for the certain hour no one knows.

Hal

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 01:10:51 PM »
Your time table is all messed up. You should be looking at what Christ said about when the events will happen and when we will know.


Look at Daniel 9:27, this is a seven year warming of His return for the judgement . If you're still here at that time you are in big trouble , because believers will have no warning.

OlympicClimb12

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 07:54:31 PM »
Hi Hal. Well you believe my time table is mixed up? It would be only according to what perhaps view a person is determining the timing and order of events. When will these things happen? There is not a specific date to work off of. But we do at least have the signs that Jesus told us to take watch.
 
The next topic I want to share is the Thief in the night. I’ll get back to Daniel 9:27. If it is believed that the Thief in the night is a secret Rapture with no signs to look for that is incorrect thinking. Do you really think God would leave his people ’Totally in the dark?’. When Jesus came the first time God used the sign of the Star of Bethlehem for the wise men to see this Star. God does not want to surprise us. For this is where the Thief in the Night comes into play. The term Thief in the Night is if a Thief is looking upon your house and you are not watching. This Thief will come at a day and hour that no persons knows.
 
But we must understand the Thief only surprises the one”Not Ready’. Read all sections in the bible concerning the Thief. Jesus tells ’Believers” to be Vigilant that the Thief will not come by surprise. This is verified first in Matthew 24. Now also look in the book of Revelation the Church of Sardis. This Church is warned if you don't change and you are not watching the Thief will come upon you. This warning therefore is to only those”Not watching”.
 
Take a look in Daniel 12:10
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

See the righteous will know these answers and these things. But the Wicked shall not know these things. So if a true believer is watching they will not be surprised. And why not? Because Jesus gave us the signs to watch for his second appearing..
 
To show this look at the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25. Five virgins had Oil in their Lamps and five only had some oil. These wise Virgins went to the Wedding supper. This is the Gathering that happens at the end of the tribulation. The Gathering does not happen before the 7 years or in the middle. That for good reasons. I will get back to that one. So now see finally the Thief in the Night is used in Revelation 16:15. That Thief in the Night Rev. 16 also occurs at the time of Armageddon as Jesus tells us in Rev.16. Yet while we see the wrath of God in this chapter. The Gathering also occurs for which they will be caught up before Jesus sends wrath in hi second coming. The Promise is they would not see the wrath of God. So when Jesus returns the Elect are gathered and then the Wrath shall be poured out on those who followed after the Beast.  .
 
As for Daniel 9”27. I don’t see how the Abomination Antichrist is going to change the order of events concerning the second return of Jesus. The antichrist however does show we only have about 3 and a half so years left.  As I said earlier Daniel 12 gives the Believers the Wisdom to count the number 1335 days. This is 3 and a half years plus and an extra number of days that will amount to the final 1335.
 
So now we know what to count. God has given us the wisdom. Daniel was told shut this book of words until the end of these things. Notice that Daniel is told he will not receive his reward until these days were completed and finished?. . If we should believe that Christians are going to be treated better than Daniel to receive a reward much sooner than him then once again there has been divisions between Jews and Greek of the Gentiles. But since God is one we will all receive rewards at the End of the age, the End of the Great Trib.

Listen to the messages in Revelation. Those who endure to the end will receive the crown of Life. So if anyone is taken before or in the middle that is not the End. The end means the End. If we try say the Church is gathered earlier we shorten many of the Bible Prophecies that are to be fulfilled. I understand one does not want to go into the 7 years of trouble. .

But for a reason no one completely understands God is allowing us to go into this last 7 years. Please read Corinthians 1 about our sufferings and tribulation. There is no promise in this life God will take us out of suffering and all Tribulations. But God will walk with us in the storm giving us comfort, Hope, with the strength of Jesus who is greater than the world will bring us to the end. Whether we live or whether we die the Lord is Our Lord and He will not forsake us.

You may not understand why God is allowing this. But then other things like why did God allow Satan to live over 6000 years even though His Judgment is final? Why does God allow this Satan murder Hater to test His people? Why does God allow people to be extremely sick? Why did God let 911 happen? 4000 people plus died at once. We may not have all the answers at this time why God allows these things to happen around us. But we are supposed to learn from God what is happening around us. .

I did not plan a 7 year time of trouble. I did not create Hell that some will suffer eternally. I have no power over these things. God has said which are the right and true judgments. Since I am just a Human and not God I just don't have all the answers. Rather I just believe whatever is written and take it by faith day by day.

macuser

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2014, 06:02:29 PM »
Not Left Behind by Dr. Robert Jeffress


Jess

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2014, 05:31:24 AM »
Thanks for this spirited debate, I admire how well emotions were held in check
and the tone was kept respectful. One person declared that "rapture" must be
pre-trib as the rebuilding of the temple and the two witnesses would be noticed
by all and act as a warning for others to get prepared. Would not the "rapture"
itself be very noticeable and act as a warning in the same way?

Fat

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2014, 07:26:17 AM »
Hello Jess
After the rapture there would be no believers left. Now some will undoubtedly that they day of judgement is 7 years from that day but it would be too late to figure out the day the Church is lifted up.

Fat
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Hal

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2014, 06:18:57 PM »
Thanks for this spirited debate, I admire how well emotions were held in check
and the tone was kept respectful. One person declared that "rapture" must be
pre-trib as the rebuilding of the temple and the two witnesses would be noticed
by all and act as a warning for others to get prepared. Would not the "rapture"
itself be very noticeable and act as a warning in the same way?

Wouldn't stand to reason that if you saw the 2 witnesses you could time the rapture. But if the reapture occured first it would be a complete surprise as Christ discribed in Mat 24.
36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 06:42:36 PM by Hal »

Jess

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2014, 10:46:21 AM »
Hal and Fat,
          It probably doesn't matter but here is my reading of Mathew 24, I understood it this way the first time I read it when I was 7-8 years old and it still seems correct today. It is such a plainly worded text that I was taken aback the first time I discussed it with another Christian and they understood it differently. The difference as near as I can tell is that people who were taught how to understand it are of the opinion that you are and people who just read it for themselves understand it as Climber and I do. I am probably damned to the lake of fire in your eyes as I also read the Bible only a couple times before I asked my Dad why everyone went to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) instead of on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath day described in the Bible. He tried to explain the Church views but also told me that he could forgive me for my views as I was the only one of his five children who had his nose poked in the Bible all the time. I hope God is as forgiving as my Dad was.

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world¹ for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation², spoken of by Daniel the prophet², stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand²:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!³

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.4

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.5

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.6

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days7 shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven7: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.6

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.7




¹ This was not possible in 70AD, may not have been possible until our present generation.

² Seems critical that we are able to understand what the abomination of desolation (AD) is; the belief that this means “the holy place is surrounded by armies” does not work as that has happened so many times in history that it is basically a common condition. Daniel did give insight into this; the AD was or will be “set up” 1290 “days” after the daily sacrifice is taken away and possibly will be seen “standing in the holy place” 45 “days” later. (see footnote below)

³ Why?

4 Cannot be 70AD, we have seen so much worse since.

5Divine intervention to stop a man made great tribulation that could have caused no flesh to be saved? One thing is for sure at this point the “elect” are still around and not “raptured” as this will be done for their sake.

6Like a lightning bolt clear across the sky, all tribes, will see the Son of Man. No sneaking in to “rapture” the good guys; all will see this and know exactly what is happening!

7Ah yes, and now the “rapture”, or gathering of the elect. Sure appears that this is immediately after the great tribulation of those days that will be worse than anything before or after, does it not?

Footnote: Daniel 12: 10-13
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Fat

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2014, 11:47:55 AM »
I also read the Bible only a couple times before I asked my Dad why everyone went to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) instead of on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath day described in the Bible.

I don't have one of those bibles that have the words Saturday and Sunday in it. My first day of the week starts as the bible as defined in scripture as my first day of work (shall work six days and rest on the seventh keeping it Holy). If you start your work week on Sunday you should rest on Saturday, I have no problem with that. You can buy calendars that start with either day as the first day of the week, you can even make your own if you like.  8)

Next bible I buy I'll try and get one with the days named and not numbered.


Jess

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2014, 12:22:09 PM »
Fat,
          I honestly had no idea you could buy a calendar that had the first day as Monday, I have never seen one. That is pretty cool. How about Mathew 24 though? I did some highlighting to bring out points, hope I did not make a mess of it

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world¹ for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation², spoken of by Daniel the prophet², stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand²:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!³

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.4

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.5

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.6

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days7 shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven7: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.6

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.7




¹ This was not possible in 70AD, may not have been possible until our present generation.

² Seems critical that we are able to understand what the abomination of desolation (AD) is; the belief that this means “the holy place is surrounded by armies” does not work as that has happened so many times in history that it is basically a common condition. Daniel did give insight into this; the AD was or will be “set up” 1290 “days” after the daily sacrifice is taken away and possibly will be seen “standing in the holy place” 45 “days” later. (see footnote below)

³ Why?

4 Cannot be 70AD, we have seen so much worse since.

5Divine intervention to stop a man made great tribulation that could have caused no flesh to be saved? One thing is for sure at this point the “elect” are still around and not “raptured” as this will be done for their sake.

6Like a lightning bolt clear across the sky, all tribes, will see the Son of Man. No sneaking in to “rapture” the good guys; all will see this and know exactly what is happening!

7Ah yes, and now the “rapture”, or gathering of the elect. Sure appears that this is immediately after the great tribulation of those days that will be worse than anything before or after, does it not?

Footnote: Daniel 12: 10-13
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

macuser

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2014, 12:50:04 PM »
Jess you have to separate the elect not yet saved and the church (elect saved). There is no biblical way to you can come up with a post-tribulation scenario without calling Christ a false prophet. If you see the two witness ascend you would know the day of the rapture to be 3 1/2 years.

Why is it that so many believe that the rapture and second coming is the same?

Mac


Fat

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2014, 02:38:13 PM »
Jess

Matt 24 is yet to occur.

Paul on the subject:

2 Th 2: 3  3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. 

John wrote of the same man in the future:

Rev 13:14, 15 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live . 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak , and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The gathering of the elect in vs 31 is just that. There will be a great number that will come to Christ after the rapture lead by the 144,000 spoke of in Rev 7. This is not the rapture it is the second coming, the church is already in heaven and the Marriage of the Lamb has taken place (Rev 19) before His return. How did they get there???????????

You can not use the Scriptures to come up with a post-trib rapture, it doesn't work. You can make the case for a pre or mid-trib but not a post-trib.

Jess

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2014, 03:46:04 PM »
Fat and macuser,
          Thank you for the replies, perhaps one of you could take the time to walk me through Mathew 24 verse by verse to help me understand or at least answer the questions I pose. To macuser's question; "Why is it that so many believe that the rapture and second coming is the same? I would venture to say it is because more people are reading the bible to get their answers instead of listening to false religions and men's opinions to get them.
          Listen guys, I apologize for my ignorance. I really thought this site would be an open discussion on the Bible. It now seems obvious that it is sponsored or at least populated by a specific religious sect and you would prefer to only hear what that sect believes. I assume you both to be "good Christians" who go to church every Sunday, have no issues with their display of pagan symbols, have no problem with mass prayer or being led in prayer and are very happy in your beliefs. More power to you! I must also assume that if we got into a discussion about prayer you would spend a lot of time explaining to me how it is ok to pray in public, pray in your church or be led in mass prayer. You would explain to me how badly I misunderstand what Christ meant to say about how to pray. I promise I will not waste your time by starting that discussion.

Fat

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Re: Your kind of Rapture or not
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »
Fat and macuser,
          Thank you for the replies, perhaps one of you could take the time to walk me through Mathew 24 verse by verse to help me understand or at least answer the questions I pose.

I hope you understand that it is very dangerous to study scripture out of context. The bible does not conflict with it's self. 2 Th 2:3, 4 & Rev 13:14, 15  are also part of the answer. Don't rely on what I think, read the bible! Isn't that what you professed?

Quote from: Jess
I prefer to quote the Bible instead of men because I know that it can only lead people to study the Bible and not possibly influence them to follow potentially false prophets.

assume you both to be "good Christians" who go to church every Sunday, have no issues with their display of pagan symbols, have no problem with mass prayer or being led in prayer and are very happy in your beliefs.

You make those assumptions do you, you would do better if you browsed the site before making statements like that. I have tried to show you the conflict you have caused for yourself.

2 Th 2:3, 4 & Rev 13:14, 15  are also part of the answer.

I pray that the Spirit will grant you His wisdom and your mission will result in many coming to Christ.


IHS
Fat