Author Topic: Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church? by pilgrim  (Read 2012 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

admin

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 197
Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church? by pilgrim
« on: April 14, 2011, 01:16:02 pm »
Posted for pilgrim

Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church?
 
       It is understood that the very supposition of this study will be very controversial. With the universal belief that Peter started the present church, the question is so far from normal biblical discussions that most would wonder why it was asked at all. But its importance goes far beyond simplicity. It effect’s many things that have been accepted as truth, that are not.
 
       The twelve including Peter were apostles to the circumcision whose destination and rewards will be realized in an earthly kingdom, whereas, our citizenship is in heaven. Paul stood alone as the apostle to, and founder of the present Gentile church to which he alone wrote 13 epistles including the Epistle to the Hebrews bringing the total to 14.
 
       Nowhere were the 12 directed to desert the temple and related ceremonial observances of the Mosaic laws that were for the governing of a nation. When applied to the church they will only bring confusion without end as history has already verified. It was the teaching that the Church is the Messianic kingdom promised to Israel that paved the road to a thousand years of the dark ages.
 
       Peter wrote no epistles to any Gentile church and only 2 to the Jews. Likewise, the other Jewish epistles were to the Jews because the ministry of the 12 was to the Jews only (Gal. 2:2, 7-8). Because of Paul’s abundance of revelation, he reveals profound things that can be found nowhere else that applies to both.
 
       It was the apostle Peter who is said to have founded the present assembly of Christ on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. But in reality had nothing to do with the present church which was founded by Paul in AD 46-47 (Acts 13:2, 46-47.
 
       Roman Catholicism’s claim that Peter founded the present church and the Pope is one of his successors is patently false. Nevertheless, the protestant churches have blindly followed, and the belief is almost universally accepted that the present church began with Peter.
 
       Again we bring to the readers attention that the only recorded instance where Peter had anything to do with a Gentile church was in Antioch where he was visiting, and then Paul had to reprimand him for his inconsistent behavior in a Gentile church (Gal. 2:11-14).
 
       When all the apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss the problem of some of the Jews demands that Paul’s Gentile converts were to be circumcised and keep the commandments, it was determined that a letter should be sent to the Gentiles churches in which they said:
 
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with word unsettling your souls, say “you must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well (Acts 15).
 
Here it is plain that the church was a different program than that of the twelve who still observed the Mosaic laws and were offering the kingdom to Israel.
 
       After the meeting in Jerusalem some were still saying that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake the law. And they remembered the earlier decision concerning the Gentiles relation to the law; that it was not binding on the Gentiles. To show that he taught no such thing Paul submitted to the requests of those Jewish leaders in Jerusalem and honored the Mosaic laws that were still binding on the Jews (Acts 21:21-26) that had nothing to do with the present Gentile church that Paul founded).
 
       Indeed a gospel was preached by all beginning with John the Baptist but it was the good news of the Davidic kingdom being offered to Israel and so named 33 times in Matthew. But we follow the early church in believing there was no difference between the gospel of the kingdom and Paul’s gospel of grace; that Paul’s gospel was just a continuation of the kingdom gospel. That is the reason the Amillennialists believe the Church is the kingdom promised to Israel that the prophets spoke of.
 
       The end result is that we in part form our theology from two mutually exclusive covenants, one of law and the other of grace, and preach a mixed gospel that will bring nothing but confusion as history has shown. We apply things spoken by the twelve apostles to Israel, to the church, and things that belong to another dispensation to ourselves in this Dispensation of Grace.
 
       We preach a mixed gospel that cannot help but bring endless confusion. We have seventh day Advents, seventh day Baptists, and people trying to get to heaven by keeping the commandments, just like the Lord commanded.
 
       “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matt. 19:16-17). Twice Paul twice said that anyone who preached the commandments as the way of life “let them be accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9).
 
       In Eph. 2:20 it is said that those in the church are, “…being built on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.” But v. 19 says we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. It is also clearly seen by the fact that Paul and all who are born of the Spirit are presently citizens of the universal kingdom of God (Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:20; family, Eph. 3:15; household, 2:19-20; Gal. 6:10).
 
       However, to be included and part of the universal kingdom, family and household of God is not at all the same as being included in the bride of Christ which is God’s way of identifying the church as a different group completely apart from Israel, the Law and the coming Messianic kingdom. The failure to make no distinction between the different dispensations and responsibilities of the different parties involved is where all the confusion began and still lies.
 
       In Eph. 3:6 Paul says the Jews and Gentiles are, “fellow heirs, of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.” The reason he made that remark was because in his ministry, he preached to both the way of salvation and therefore the church is a mixture of Jews and Gentiles where there is no difference. What the heirs inherit is eternal life.
 
       But at the same time, there were different requirements for believers including Jews in the present church and those Jews who were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom as shown in Acts 21:21-25 who were still zealous of the law. Why should they not still use the Mosaic laws? They are still preaching the kingdom message to the nation Israel and nowhere can it be shown that they were instructed to do otherwise and desert the Mosaic laws which has to do with the governing of a nation; Israel.
 
       The greater problem that Paul had with some of the Jews was their demand that his Gentile converts had to honor the same Mosaic Laws as they yet did. And it is hardly different today with those who insist that the so-called gospels that teach the keeping of the law of commandments is part of the New Covenant (Testament). From what is erroneously said to be the gospels (without distinction), is where most of what the church teaches is formulated.
 
       Still, the question remains, were the 12 apostles part of the present body and bride of Christ? Seven times in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the disciples were clearly identified by the Lord Himself as “friends of the Bridegroom,” (Matt. 9:15; Mk. 2:19; Lk. 5:34). In Lk. 12:4 and Jo. 15:13, 14, 15 they are called “friends, nowhere was it ever so much as hinted that they were part of anyone’s bride.
 
       In the parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25, it is Israel who goes out to meet the bridegroom and is the same time as those Israelites who hear the third offer of the kingdom in Matt. 22:9-10 and Matt. 24:14 which is the beginning of the tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week.
 
       It has been shown in several ways such as Matthew 10 and 22, where the Lord Himself said the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all the world before the end of the times of the Gentiles comes. Somewhere there is a change from preaching the present gospel of grace, and the renewal of the gospel of the kingdom being preached, and that is precisely where the rapture fits in. It is a division line between the two.
 
       In both instances, Israel cannot be the bride because the notice was that the bridegroom was coming to the marriage banquet after the wedding has already taken place. That would be when the Bridegroom comes from the bride chamber in heaven to introduce His bride the present church to His friends at the wedding feast after He establishes the kingdom.
 
       If the Lord said the 12 apostles were friends of the bridegroom, then how could it be said that they are part of His bride the church? It not only is strong evidence, but absolute proof that the rapture has already occurred earlier in the ten virgins parable when they wait for the coming of the bridegroom. And she has, “…made herself ready” and to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints” (Rev. 19:7-8).
 
       The fine linen garments are the rewards for the works that stand the test at the judgment seat of Christ in heaven.
 
…each ones work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has build on it (Jesus Christ) endures, he will receive a reward (1 Cor. 3: 13-14, clarification added).
 
In Lk. 12:35-36 the Lord said to His disciples: “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he well return from the wedding.” When it is said they should keep their lamps burning, and watching (v. 37), are they not identified as the same ten virgins of Matthew 25 who waited for the return of the bridegroom from the wedding (Rev. 19:6-9)? If the disciples are like those waiting for the bridegroom’s return from the wedding with His bride, how can they be part of the church bride? They cannot be both.
 
       It is hardly coincidence that the Lord never spoke of His disciples as the bride of anyone, and nowhere did Paul ever speak of believers in this dispensation as friends of the Bridegroom. Nor are we Gentile sons of the kingdom” Matt. 13:38, or Jewish “brethren” of the Lord (Matt. 25:40).
 
       There is an even more remarkable passage showing the disciples to be “friends of the bridegroom” rather than part of the Lord’s bride. When John the Baptist sent and asked the Lord why His disciples did not fast as his did, the Lord said: “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them” (Matt. 9:15). Again in Lk. 12:4 the Lord said to His disciples: “And I say to you, My friends,” In Jo. 15:24 the Lord said to the disciples: “No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends” (Jo. 15:15). Can anything be plainer than the truth that the disciples were not part of the present church but friends of the Bridegroom?
 
       Peter’s and the other apostles remarks always had to do with establishing the kingdom on earth where judgments of people the world over would take place, but especially the Jews to determine who would be admitted into the kingdom being offered. They were those whose salvation was “…to be revealed in the last time” (1 Pet. 1:5). In chap. 1:11 he again speaks of being admitted “…into the everlasting kingdom.”
 
       When Peter offered the kingdom in Acts 3:15-19 it included the restoration of all things lost by Adam and Israel. He said to Israel:
 
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, “and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
 
Here everything that Peter offered had to do with different things than what Paul offered in his gospel of grace that had to do especially with free salvation. However, Paul’s admonition when looking for the rapture was to look “…for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). And again, the reason, in Colossians (3:4): “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
     
      But of the Jews the apostle John says; “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming (1 Jo. 2:28). From John’s remark it is plain that he is speaking of Judgment waiting for them and the world at His appearing. Paul says when He appears we will be with Him, but to the Jews John speaks of having confidence at His coming. At that time it is said that we will be with Him because we have already had our works judged before Christ in heaven to determine our rewards and position in the coming kingdom that John speaks of.
 
       From Paul and John’s remarks, there must be a different program with different promises, different goals, rewards, and expectations altogether between the friends of the bridegroom and the church. Paul’s promises included a citizenship in heaven and a position of co-judging the world and angles when the kingdom is established (1 Cor. 6:2-3). However, the twelve were promised a position of judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom on earth (Matt. 19:28).
 
If nothing else could be said to divide Paul from the 12 is the fact that they were of another dispensation and preaching another gospel; the gospel of the kingdom. Their work and program had long existed before Paul’s gospel and the present assembly of Christ ever existed and continued so without ever merging. Even after the establishment of the kingdom there is still a different program and responsibility for the 12 friends of the Bridegroom and that of Paul and the bride of Christ. By the fact that their reward was mentioned and nothing was said about Paul having any part of their rewards clearly shows that theirs was a different program.
 
      In earlier posts it was shown that the present assembly of Christ began in AD 46-47 with Paul’s first missionary journey to the Gentiles. Until then according to Paul the present church, his gospel, rapture, and dispensation of grace was a mystery and did not exist. If that is true, then the 12 before Paul belonged to another dispensation and Devine program, before the present dispensation existed and therefore was not part of the present assembly of Christ.
           
Apart from salvation, the correct biblical teaching of the kingdom, insofar as a sound and complete biblical theology is concerned, is the crucial doctrine of the Bible. Because of the resulting confusion about the church being the new Israel, and therefore the kingdom promised to them, any major discussion about the church has to involve to some degree a discussion of the kingdom.
 
The revelation of the present church and the mystery of the catching away of the church (1 Cor. 15:51‑52; 1 Thess. 4:15‑17) explains Peter’s remarks about some things Paul had written as being “hard to understand” (2 Pet. 3:15‑16). It was the whole present age of which Peter was unaware before the Lord sent Paul to explain his gospel to Peter and those in Jerusalem (Gal. 2:2, 7-8). Would the Lord send Paul to explain something to the 12 that he had forgotten? The thought is absurd.
 
If the kingdom was known from the beginning, and the church was a mystery hidden from past ages and generations, then it is not possible that they are the same. Paul said:
 
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles–if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in a few words, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. To me who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all people see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ (Eph. 3:1‑9).
 
In the above it is said:
 
1. This present dispensation of grace to the Gentiles began when it was given to Paul (v. 2).
 
2. By revelation a special knowledge of a mystery was revealed to Paul (vv. 3‑4).
 
3. Paul’s knowledge was unknown in past ages, now revealed to the apostles (v. 5).
 
4. The Gentiles are to be fellow heirs in the same body (v. 6).
 
  5. Paul was to preach to the Gentiles what had been hidden from the beginning of the ages (v. 9).
 
Paul also tells the Colossian and Roman church the same as the Ephesians.
 
I became a minister according to the stewardship (dispensation) from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God, the mystery which was kept secret since the world began (Col. 1:25‑26, clarification added).
 
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began (Rom. 16:25, italics added).
 
Paul directly states that it was “my knowledge,” “my gospel,” and this present dispensation that was a mystery; kept secret since the world began. In Eph. 3:5 he spoke of “his knowledge” which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men but now revealed to the holy apostles. It was revealed by the Holy Spirit to them when he said he: “went up by revelation,” and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles” (Gal. 2:2). The Ephesians letter was written in AD 61 and was years after Paul wrote to the Galatians that he had already been sent to Jerusalem to enlighten the other apostles.
 
As Paul above makes it very clear that the church of today was a mystery, Peter in Acts 3:19-25 makes it equally clear that the kingdom of heaven (Israel) that he was offering was spoken of from the beginning of the world. He said to the Israel:
 
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began Acts 3:19-21).”
 
       By the very fact that Jesus did not return is indisputable proof that whatever it was that Peter offered was never realized. Neither was the kingdom of Israel established, nor did the present assembly of Christ begin with Peter’s preaching.
 
The times of refreshing spoke of the Year of Jubilee, every 50 year in Israel where all debt’s were canceled and all servants set free. Of course the times of the restoration of all things had to be speaking of all that Adam lost. If what Peter was offering had been accepted than we would be living in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth now. To say as some do that all things have been restored is hardly worth refuting; it borders on irrationality.
 
      In earlier studies it has been shown that the present assembly of Christ began in AD 46-47 with Paul’s first missionary journey to the Gentiles. Until then according to Paul the present church, rapture, and dispensation of grace was a mystery and did not exist. If that is true, then the 12 before Paul belonged to another dispensation and Devine program, before the present dispensation existed and therefore was not part of the present assembly and bride of Christ.
 
       If the conclusions drawn here are correct and accepted, then many things must be seen and re-examined from an entirely different perspective. And will without doubt result in a more simple and clear understanding many things. Those things that have heretofore been difficult if not impossible to understand between Paul and the teaching of the 12 will fit together with perfect harmony.
 
       So often in the churches effort to form a complete and rounded theological package, we force Scriptures into places where they do not, and never will fit. Consequently, all too many twist the Scriptures with their so-called spiritual interpretations having rejected a literal understanding to fit their own program. If my conclusions are correct, there will be harmony throughout the bible and the different passages that give us trouble in understanding the rapture and many other things will cease to be a problem, and that without a pseudo spiritual interpretation.
     
       In conclusion, it is the position in this book that the 12 apostles before Paul cannot be included in the present bride and body of Christ, because as already shown, there is nothing in the record showing they had anything to do with the present church that Paul founded. That product is the teaching of a misled church for 2 millennia and not found in Scripture.
 
       The conclusions that I have arrived at are not only mine but are shared by many others called “Mid-Acts Dispensationalists” of which there are over 300 congregations now in America. Their belief’s and mine were arrived at when we were completely unknown to each other, but were simply going by what the Scriptures literally say.
 
       For those who might be interested, there are two websites where many have written the same thing found in my posts. “The Dispensational Berean,” by Ben Webb, and “Wielding the Sword of the Spirit” by Mathew McGee.
 
In His grace
 
pilgrim

dan p

  • Guest
Re: Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church? by pilgrim
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 12:03:26 pm »
 Hi , and within Dispensational circles , there are divisions concerning the 12 apostles , if they are in the Body of Christ .

 1 Cor 15:8 answers that problem quickly and fast ,  dan p

Proa42

  • Guest
Re: Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church? by pilgrim
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2012, 03:58:19 pm »
Which 12?
Given the total number of Apostles, there are several combinations and permutations which can be made.
There are the 11 survivors, plus Mathias. And then, Paul and at least ", , , Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles,".

Then we know there were more than "the twelve" when The Christ walked as man. This can be shown in Pauls testimony to the Corinthians as he describes The Christs sighting after his resurrection:

"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles."

If you abide by the Roman Church definition of an Apostle being one who saw Jesus, then we are must accept adoration of the saints, Mary worship, and plenary indulgences.

Apostles are the "sent" - from the Greek. Apostle ships (not to be confused with apostleship) were vessels sent out from home port to carry goods to foreign ports. They are "leaving" port - like the great leaving/departure.

To answer the question, "Yes the Twelve Apostles belong to the present body."

And, so do all the others, including those given to the church by God, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" (Evidence suggests that we have yet to meet that condition.)


michaelf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Do the 12 apostles belong in the present Church? by pilgrim
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 07:26:04 pm »
no
most churches/demoniations would throw them out.


they would preach stuff like "Jesus said unto her , I am the resurrection , and the life : he that believeth in me , though he were dead , yet shall he live

"Jesus saith unto him , I am the way , the truth , and the life : no man cometh unto the Father , but by me."

"For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves : [it is] the gift of God "