Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma

[Zant Law]

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This verse is irrelevant.  I have exposed your error using scripture.

I have provided evidence that early Christians believed as Catholics believe today.  You are free to ignore this evidence.


Here's more food for thought in case anyone is interested.  St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, was eaten by lions in Rome in about 110 AD because he wouldn't denounce his Christian faith.

He wrote several letters, and among his writings are these two quotes.  He was clearly a Catholic.  Do you believe that John taught him error, or that perhaps there is more to the Catholic Church than you realize?

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 105).

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

You say 2 Corinthians 6:14 has no relevance to CCC, par. 841? Amazing!

I can only find the church of Rome in one place in scripture, Revelation 17. May I suggest that you spend more time with the teachings of the bible and less time with the teachings of your Pharisees.

Read Paul's letters to the early Church if you really care what the 'C'hurch was like.

[chestertonrules]

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You say 2 Corinthians 6:14 has no relevance to CCC, par. 841? Amazing!

I can only find the church of Rome in one place in scripture, Revelation 17. May I suggest that you spend more time with the teachings of the bible and less time with the teachings of your Pharisees.

Read Paul's letters to the early Church if you really care what the 'C'hurch was like.

The Church was originally based in Jerusalem.  It didn't come to be based in Rome until late in the 1st century.  Jesus only started one Church.  We can read in scripture and in early Church documents about this Church.

This Church was given authority by Jesus to make rules, forgive sins in his name, and to spread throughout the world.

What gives you the authority to reject the Church Jesus started?

We are instructed in scripture to obey those who are over us in the Lord.  Do you do this?

[Zant Law]

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The Church was originally based in Jerusalem.  It didn't come to be based in Rome until late in the 1st century.  Jesus only started one Church.  We can read in scripture and in early Church documents about this Church.

This Church was given authority by Jesus to make rules, forgive sins in his name, and to spread throughout the world.

What gives you the authority to reject the Church Jesus started?

We are instructed in scripture to obey those who are over us in the Lord.  Do you do this?

Not when it conflicts with Scriptures.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You church has left the teachings of the scriptures and turned off the narrow road. For instance show me where in the Bible you have been taught to baptize infants.

[chestertonrules]

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Not when it conflicts with Scriptures.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You church has left the teachings of the scriptures and turned off the narrow road. For instance show me where in the Bible you have been taught to baptize infants.

Wrong again.  It is the protestants that have abandoned scripture.

I'll give you some examples:

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."



Re:  Infant baptism and the scriptural basis thereof:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

[Zant Law]

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Wrong again.  It is the protestants that have abandoned scripture.

I'll give you some examples:

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."



Re:  Infant baptism and the scriptural basis thereof:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

Your link shows no infant baptism reference in the Bible. By the way there is no record of Christ ever baptizing anyone.

As far as your scriptures go I whole heartily agree with them when they are interpreted as God meant them to be. And they are keep in context.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

And what about drinking the living water? Don't you believe Christ?


John 4:10 NAS
Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:11 NAS
She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep ; where then do You get that living water?

So does your holy father pee living water?

John 7:38 NAS
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "

To bad your church doesn't teach you how to study the bible and only dictates what it what's you to believe.

There is no salvation in any of the sacraments practiced by both of are churches, and that includes baptism.

[chestertonrules]

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Your link shows no infant baptism reference in the Bible. By the way there is no record of Christ ever baptizing anyone.

As far as your scriptures go I whole heartily agree with them when they are interpreted as God meant them to be. And they are keep in context.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

And what about drinking the living water? Don't you believe Christ?


John 4:10 NAS
Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:11 NAS
She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep ; where then do You get that living water?

So does your holy father pee living water?

John 7:38 NAS
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "

To bad your church doesn't teach you how to study the bible and only dictates what it what's you to believe.

There is no salvation in any of the sacraments practiced by both of are churches, and that includes baptism.

I believe all the scriptures you posted, but they say nothing about what I've already posted, which  you don't believe.

You clearly didn't read the article I linked.  There are multiple references in scripture to entire households being baptized on the same day the leader of the household accepts Christ.   There is nothing in scripture that precludes infant baptism and much that indicates that it was practiced.

In addition, we see in historical writings that infant baptism, the new circumcision, has always been part of Christianity.

Question for you:  Does the power of baptism come from God or from man?

[Zant Law]

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I believe all the scriptures you posted, but they say nothing about what I've already posted, which  you don't believe.

You clearly didn't read the article I linked.  There are multiple references in scripture to entire households being baptized on the same day the leader of the household accepts Christ.   There is nothing in scripture that precludes infant baptism and much that indicates that it was practiced.

In addition, we see in historical writings that infant baptism, the new circumcision, has always been part of Christianity.

Question for you:  Does the power of baptism come from God or from man?

Like I said there is no infant baptism in the bible!

There is only power in the baptism that Christ gives. There is no power in water baptism, and please don't give me Mark 16:16 that was added by your church 1100 years after Marks death.

Christ never baptized anyone when He was on earth in the flesh, WHY?

[chestertonrules]

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Like I said there is no infant baptism in the bible!

There is only power in the baptism that Christ gives. There is no power in water baptism, and please don't give me Mark 16:16 that was added by your church 1100 years after Marks death.

Christ never baptized anyone when He was on earth in the flesh, WHY?

Infant baptism is in the bible.  Multiple entire households were baptized.  You may deny this but that is not what the apostles taught their followers.

Jesus told his disciples to baptize the whole world.  Jesus started a Church, he gave this Church leaders, he gave these leaders his authority, and he gave these leaders specific instructions.

You are free to reject these instructions.

[Zant Law]

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Infant baptism is in the bible.  Multiple entire households were baptized.  You may deny this but that is not what the apostles taught their followers.

Jesus told his disciples to baptize the whole world.  Jesus started a Church, he gave this Church leaders, he gave these leaders his authority, and he gave these leaders specific instructions.

You are free to reject these instructions.

No infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.

The reason is very simple look back to what Philip was asked by the Egyptian on the requirements to meet baptism.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[chestertonrules]

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No infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.

 

Entire households were baptized in the bible.   If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.

Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity.  Baptism imparts grace from God.  Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

[Fat]

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Entire households were baptized in the bible.   If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.

Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity.  Baptism imparts grace from God.  Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

I think Law ask you to show him in the Bible infant baptism.

Tradition
 Bible VersionsCSBMarkMark 7Mark 7:3-13
Mark 7::7 They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men. 8 Disregarding the command of God, you keep the tradition of men." 9 He also said to them, "You completely invalidate God's command in order to maintain your tradition! 10 For Moses said: Honor your father and your mother; and, Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death. 11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or mother: Whatever benefit you might have received from me is Corban ' " (that is, a gift [committed to the temple]), 12 "you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 You revoke God's word by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things."

[Zant Law]

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Entire households were baptized in the bible.   If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.

Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity.  Baptism imparts grace from God.  Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

Again no infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.

Can an infant meet the requirements set by Philip?

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[chestertonrules]

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Again no infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.

Can an infant meet the requirements set by Philip?

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He was speaking to an adult, not a child.

Here's what Jesus said:


Matt 19:14
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

The early Christians practiced infant baptism.  Why should I accept your word that it is invalid?

You seem to want to hinder the little children.

[Zant Law]

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He was speaking to an adult, not a child.

Here's what Jesus said:


Matt 19:14
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

The early Christians practiced infant baptism.  Why should I accept your word that it is invalid?

You seem to want to hinder the little children.

That verse has nothing to do with baptism.

I am going to type this real slow so you can understand it. There is no biblical record of Christ ever baptizing anyone, adult or child.
Do you know why He did not baptize?

[chestertonrules]

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That verse has nothing to do with baptism.

I am going to type this real slow so you can understand it. There is no biblical record of Christ ever baptizing anyone, adult or child.
Do you know why He did not baptize?

Jesus told the apostles to baptize, and they did, including entire househholds.  Households include extended families and servants.

What evidence do you have that there were no infants and small children in these households?