Spiritual gifts in the Church

[pilgrim]

• 

Most Evangelicals teach that Paul in 1 Cor. 13:10 said: “when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away,” refers to the completion of the New Testament Scriptures. No doubt that is part of what Paul intended when he said:

Love never fails. But whether there be prophecies, they will fail, whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things (1 Cor. 13:8-11).

The defining point here is the word ‘perfect.’ The word translated “perfect” in 1 Cor. 13:10 in this particular setting is not the best translation of the Greek word teleios, which in this context only denotes, full age or maturity in Christ, and is so used in 1 Cor. 2:6; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 3:2 and in many other places.  The “perfect” of v. 10, is that which supersedes and replaces “that which is in part,” of v. 9. Paul further clarifies the “perfect” of v. 10, in v. 11 where he says concerning the gifts of v. 8: “when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
 
The childish things to be put away were the very gifts of the Spirit being discussed, when the Lord’s people became mature (teleios) in their understanding. It should be noted, from the record, it seems that the Corinthian church had as many or more of the Spiritual gifts than any of the assemblies, yet that very assembly is noted by most who study the Scriptures as one of, if not the most carnal of the New Testament churches.

The Corinthians were the only ones that Paul had to rebuke because of their immaturity in the use of them. It was those very gifts that made the Corinthians so “puffed up” that Paul sarcastically asked: “did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached” (14:36)?

Most of the confusion in Paul’s statement (13:8-13) was brought about by connecting the word translated perfect in v. 10 with the perfection spoken of in v. 12 when we are like Him and shall know just as we are known. But the gifts of v. 8 including prophecy were said to be temporary and was to cease and vanish away, and v. 13 confirms that. Paul said the only thing to remain, until that final and complete perfection when the Lord comes and we see Him face to face is, faith, hope and love.

The same word (teleios) translated perfect above that speaks of maturity, is precisely the word Paul uses where he thoroughly explains its meaning to the Ephesians about Christ’s gifts to the Church. They were perhaps the most knowledgeable and mature Christians found in the New Testament. Speaking of Christ Paul says:

He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity or the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect (teleios) man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13, italics and clarification added).

It is conclusive from v. 13 above that as in 1 Cor. 13:8-10 there was to be an end to the gifts of v. 8, for he says they were for the edifying of the body of Christ and for children,” until” they came to maturity (teleios) in their knowledge of Christ. Even if those gifts were for today (which according to Paul are not), those who used them were immature in their spiritual understanding of the Scriptures.

The reason some translators use the word perfect is, they themselves have been misled into believing that Paul in v. 10 is speaking of the same perfection as in v.12, “I shall know just as I am also known.” But that is not keeping things in context. When Paul told the Corinthians that for the present “we know in part” (13:9), and likens it to being as a child (v. 11) and seeing in a mirror dimly that will end when we see Him face to face (v. 12). But of the present time, and until then he says: “And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

To further substantiate the above, when he said the three things that would abide is “faith, hope, and love,” he would have to be speaking of this present time. If he intended our future state, where is there a need for faith and hope? We will see Him face to face, and be like Him. Paul speaks to that very thing in Rom. 8;24 when he says: “for we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?” Paul in the Hebrews epistle (11:1) says: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

That some miracles in the Gentile Churches were not only a witness to Jews’ in offering the kingdom is freely acknowledged. From Paul’s statements to the Corinthians it is evident that more than a substantiation of the Kingdom offer was intended.

After his conversion it was over a dozen years before Paul wrote any of his epistles. And since “his Gospel” (Rom. 16:25), and his “knowledge in the mystery of Christ” Eph. 3:4-5) was unknown to those Apostles before him (Gal. 2:2) there was a need for special gifts of prophecy, teaching, miracles, etc., to establish the present assembly of Christ. It was a new thing in the earth, completely apart from the Jews temple worship and the Mosaic law.

The mode of travel and communication being what it was, time to distribute his epistles was needed, as well as special helps until a full understanding of the present Church and who Christ was, and what He accomplished by His death. The episode of the Jerusalem council in Acts chapter 15 is an example of the prevailing confusion.

Before passing, God is not limited, He can and does heal and perform miracles when it pleases Him. As to miracles today, without doubt there are some, but not because of any scriptural promises.  Even though there may be miracles today, it should be noted, and a word of warning sounded; the very fact of miracles does not prove that it is, or is not God who is doing them, nor is supposed physical healing a proof of ones salvation.
One thing can be observed, the obvious and blatant commercialism and trafficking in the miracles and healing business has tragically turned many aside before they have even bothered to examine what the Scriptures say about salvation and eternal life. So often the message is, “Jesus can heal you,” without anything being said about the more important truth that men’s greatest problem has always been, the needs to be saved and healed from their sins, of which physical maladies are only symptoms.

May the Lord bless

Robert

[Bob]

• 

Life would be easier if you got yourself a true translation of God's Word.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)

 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

 The purpose of gifts and ultimately the Bible was:

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming ;

[pilgrim]

• 

Good morning Bob, good to hear from you. You say:

Life would be easier if you got yourself a true translation of God's Word.

Well, I have something over 30 different English translations but normally use the New King James. When reading a passage and something does not seem to fit the context and the rest of the Scriptures, then I check the Greek original to settle the question of which is the better translation.

I am not sure other than your remark about a better translation just what your point is.

My main point was, Paul said that the gifts were a temporary thing and would pass away. Faith, hope, and love were the only things to remain. Seems pretty plain to me.

Thanks again Bob

[Bob]

• 

Very simple the gifts were given to us because of the threat false doctrine. Once the threats of the false teaching or doctrine longer exist in the need for the gifts will no longer exist.

So why do you quote the King James version if you see that other versions have it translated correctly?

Blessings
Bon

[pilgrim]

• 

Hey Bob; you say;

So why do you quote the King James version if you see that other versions have it translated correctly?

If you will check my earlier answer to you, you will notice I usually use the New King James version, not the KJ.

It should be understood that, languages being as complex as they are, translation from one language to another is not altogether an exact science. It is therefore unavoidable that a certain amount of one’s own particular theological viewpoint enters into the work of a translator.

At times more than one English word can be used to express the meaning of the Greek. At times the context will determine which one is the best equivalent. But that gets into ones own understanding of the meaning of the context and that is where some disagree.

My own openion is that there is no perfect translation. As an example, in Matt. 16:18 the use of the word "church" is used by almost all as a translations of "ekklesia." When all the word ekklesia means is "assembly;" any assembly. It is plain that the translators know better but act like they don't.

I would suggest that you get you a bible concordance that will give you the meaning of any Greek or Hebrew word in the bible. I would suggest the "Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, or the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance. The Young's is easier to use in that the English meaning follows the translated word without looking up a number in the back of the book.

In His grace

pilgrim

[Bob]

• 

Hi pilgrim

I have a Strongs Concordance but the KJV and the NKJV have many flaws like, I take it that you know that Mark. 16:12 - 20 was not in Marks transcripts. It is an add on from unknown sources.

Bob


 

[pilgrim]

• 

Good morning Bob:

Yes I am aware of the questionable passage from Mk. 16. I am happy to know you agree with me about the Spiritual gifts being a temporary thing that ceased with the apostles passing.

It seems that perhaps as much as 80 % of the TV preachers are making claims that contradict what Paul says, but that is between them and their Maker and will all be cleared up in due time.

I have been condemned for being a Dispensationalist; one who distinguishes between the different dispensations, covenants, people and times. One of the most irresponsible things I have seen are those who set themselves as teachers of others and just grab Scripture from here, there, and everywhere as if the Lord intended it for them without any regard whatever for who it was intended. May the Lord deliver us from such teachers.

Thanks again Bob, may the Lord bless you Brother.

[Bob]

• 

Morning pilgrim

Very simple the gifts were given to us because of the threat false doctrine. Once the threats of the false teaching or doctrine longer exist in the need for the gifts will no longer exist.

I am happy to know you agree with me about the Spiritual gifts being a temporary thing that ceased with the apostles passing.

I take it from your post that you believe that the threat of false teaching past with the apostles. That is not what I said.

The Scriptures state:
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming ;


Do you believe that we have come to that result? I do not.

May our Lord always have His hand on you for guidance and comfort.

Bob

[pilgrim]

• 

Bob says:

I take it from your post that you believe that the threat of false teaching past with the apostles. That is not what I said.

That is not what I said either. Bob I don’t know where you got the notion that I believe there is no danger from false teachings. Remember, in my last post I said my guess was that about 80% of what we see on TV is not according to the Book?

There are mature Christians, but no perfect ones who know it all. We are all susceptible to error which we must be on guard about constantly. My standard for avoiding error in my conclusions is to always understand any passage in the context in which it is found. Never give a figurative meaning to what is spoken using normal words and with common meanings. And check all my conclusions with all Scriptures and make sure there is no conflict. If our conclusions are correct, there will be perfect harmony throughout the Scriptures.

I hope this clarifies my remarks.

May the Lord bless

pilgrim