Author Topic: predestination  (Read 16636 times)

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Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2013, 10:38:35 pm »
Fat,

Are you literate?

Please post where I said something about "replacement theology".

You make up things I haven't said, while ignoring what I did say.

Jack

Quote from: Reply #49
Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology

I am sorry Jack but I think you are done here. Please move on, thank you.

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2013, 08:47:50 am »
Fat,

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.

John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of  eternal life.
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".

Let me spell it out for you:

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Notice, "even so must the Son of man be lifted up"  and why must He be lifted up? Verse 15 "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.

John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Jesus had to be lifted up to DRAW ALL MEN

It says WHOSOEVER and ALL, not all of the "elect", not whosoever of the "elect"; JUST "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL".

Stop trying to make the "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL" go away, it won't work.

Jack

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2013, 10:27:14 am »
One problem in numbers 21 there is no indication that all that were bitten by the serpent look at the bronze image. It is very clear even as you stated this was a test of belief.

Numbers 21:6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard ; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard ; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

Some translations use the word and to show that not all looked at it and not all were saved.

9 Therefore Moses made a serpent of brass, and setted (it) in a perch; and (those) men (who were) hurt, and beholding it, were healed. (And so Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it up on a pole; and those who were bitten, and looked at it, were healed.)
9 And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass -- he hath lived.
 9 So Moses made a bronze snake. He put it up on a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake remained alive.

For John 12 scripture I ask that you consider it in context.

John 12
30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 "Now judgment is upon this world ; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever ; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man ?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke : "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED ?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM"

Your interpretation of does not jive with the rest of the text. What is the relationship of those who believed and those that could not believe?

Calvinist believe there are two types of Calling by God.

External Call

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Internal Call

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

When you preached the gospel of repentance (Luke 24:47) to your Marines they receive External Call (if they had not already heard the gospel). That was not enough and never is. Repentance is part of receiving the call (Internal Call) and that takes a convection of their sins and can only come from the Holy Spirit.

 John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me brings him. Then I will raise him up on the last day.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2013, 02:27:17 pm »
Fat,

Just three quick notes before I go to work on another project for a while.

1) If you actually read the entire story of the 'firey serpents' in Numbers 21, you will notice that the ONLY REASON Moses made, and lifted up the "brazen" serpent, was to address THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DYING BECAUSE THEY WERE BITTEN. if you weren't bitten, you didn't have to look. The point of the Jesus bringing up the "brazen" serpent was because He had to be lifted up in the same manner, and, it was the dying people that had to look and live. Today it is NO DIFFERENT, the DYING PEOPLE need to look and live.

2) i always find it interesting when people have to "find a version" of the Bible to meet there beliefs. Pick a Bible that you believe is correct, and stick with it. (I do, and it works great.)

3) You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.

Jack

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2013, 03:06:11 pm »
Jack

Is it your intent to say that everybody that was bitten by the serpent did look at the bronze statue? Other than that I am not disagreeing with that statement.

Also something that may be worth considering is that God sent to those serpents to bring the people into repentance.

I don't like shopping translations either but I'm trying to make a visual point there is nothing in this text that says all were saved. The traffic lights were installed so that when everyone stops on the red light there will be no accidents. Does that mean everyone stops for the red light?

Quote from: Jack
You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.
Calvinists disagree in many areas amongst themselves, but I doubt if you can refine too much disagreement on this point. I would like to know your thoughts on the matter of Matthew 22:14 and Romans 8:30,  external and internal calling.

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2013, 07:16:57 pm »
Fat,

I do not believe all were saved, but those who chose to look at the brazen serpent after they were bitten, did live. Key word, "chose".

Jack


Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2013, 07:18:22 pm »
Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?

Well Fat,

You are always talking about how I take things out of context. So let's take a look at Matthew 22:14 all by its self.

Matthew 22: 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Yes, that looks pretty persuasive, doesn't it? But what happens when we see the verses that led up to these words of Christ?

Matthew 22 
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here is the story:

A king is about to have a marriage for his son. (vs. 2)
So he sends his servants to  “to call them that were bidden to the wedding”. I want you to see why they did not come. “and they would not come.”
Notice, they were called, the father (the king) wanted them to come. That is why he called them. BUT
“they would not come”. This was not the choice of the king, this was the choice of the people who were “called”. This was not an 'external call', this was a call to a wedding that the king wanted them to attend (as in get here right now!). (vs. 3)
By this time the king is ready to plead with those were “called”. So, “he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.” I want you to understand, what the king (father) is doing. He is pleading with those who have already been called prior to the wedding (notice the word “were” called in verse 2, this shows that the father had already invited (or called) those people to his son's wedding and the purpose of sending out the servants in verse 2 was because they hadn't shown up at the appointed time. Hence, the father sends out servants to remind them (if you  would) that the time of the wedding is at hand. However, they “would not come”. So now in verse 4 the father is telling those who “were called” and “would not come”, all the trouble he has gone through to have this wedding for his son. (vs 4)
However, “But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:”
What does this mean? It means THEY CHOSE to not only not go, BUT, “they made light of it”. Do you think maybe the servants of the king were getting a little stressed? They were pleading on behalf of the king (father), and were getting nowhere! But that isn't all! They started taking off, “and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:” , (vs.5) and the “called” took it to a whole new level!

You would think that would be enough, but no, not yet. “And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.” The rest of the “called” (the ones that were 1) initially “called” before the wedding; 2) “called” at the time the wedding was at hand; and 3) were now “called” a third time [do you think the father wanted them at the wedding? Maybe, just a little?]) now take the father's servants treat them bad, and then kill them. (vs. 6)

Wouldn't you know, the father finds out, and he is upset. After all that he went through, these people he had “called”, not only didn't come to his son's wedding, but they killed the servants that had invited them three times. So what does the king do?

“But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”

This king (father) had expected these guests who were “called” to show up at his son's wedding. He wanted them to show up at his son's wedding. He “called” them three times to come to his son's wedding, and they “would not come”. Now in case you didn't get this yet, they chose not to come. The father did not predestinate them to not come. They chose to not come. They also chose to mistreat, and kill his servants. That is why the father gets “wroth”, and “destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.” They made some real bad choices, and ended up paying the consequences. (vs. 7)

We now see the father's attitude toward those that, 1) were “called”; 2) “would not come”; and 3) killed his servants. “Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.” What does this mean? “They which were bidden were not worthy”. Quite simply, the father had graciously invited these people to his son's wedding; but because they “chose” not to accept his gracious “call”, they were not worthy. Had they “chose” to answer the gracious “call”, he would have considered them worthy of his blessing. Their loss. (vs. 8)

The father's son is still getting married. So the father takes action: “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” Please understand, even though the people that were 'initially' “called” decided not to come, that doesn't stop the wedding. The father will simply “bid” others to the wedding. “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” This is definitely not “predestination”! (as taught by Calvinists) The father sends out his servants into the highways for what? To “bid”, “as many as ye shall find”. Let me make this clear.

The servants now run out into the highways, and “bid” “as many as ye shall find” to the marriage. But guess what? Those “bidden” still have a “choice”! These are definitely not predestinated either. (vs. 9)

So what happens? “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.” The wedding is now furnished with guests. But notice who is there: “both bad and good”. This shows that not everyone that desires to come to the wedding is good. A bit more on that in a moment. (vs. 10)

I want you to understand that before a person is allowed into the actual wedding area, he must have on the proper “garment” or attire (clothing), after all, this is the son of the king! But as the father is looking at the guests, he notices something: “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:”. So why didn't he have on a wedding garment? May I kindly say that desire to be saved, doesn't get you saved. Going to church, doesn't get you saved. When we are “called” by the father to be saved, we must understand that we DO NOT MAKE THE RULES. There are many who have every desire to go to Heaven, but are not willing to accept the righteousness of Christ. They think they can make it by their own righteousness, however they are wrong.

Here in this parable, the man without a wedding garment, doesn't have the righteousness of Christ, he thought he would be okay on his own. (vs. 11)

Now, the man without the wedding garment, must give an answer. “And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.” Note the compassion with which the father questions: “Friend”. 2 Peter 3:9 “ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Father has no desire to send anyone to Hell, but, when we refuse to repent, and put on the righteousness of Christ, He has no choice. Likewise, this man came without the correct garment, with no excuse. (“he was speechless”.) (vs. 12)

Because the man “chose” not to put on the “wedding garment”, he too was unworthy. It is not enough to answer the “call” to come to the wedding, we must enter the wedding in the right “garment”, the righteousness of Christ. “Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Without the righteousness of Christ, we cannot be acceptable to the Father. The only answer at that point, is the Lake of Fire.  Notice: nothing in this parable gives any hint whatsoever to the “predestination” taught by Calvinism. The only thing this teaches, and defines is salvation by “choosing” to answer the “call”, and be willing to accept the “wedding garment” provided by the Father. (vs. 13)

And now we come to the verse that has all the attention.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

When we look at the story above, we must ask the question, “Who are the people that actually made it into the wedding”? I think the answer is quite clear by the unfolding of the details of the story. First, each person that made it into the wedding had to be “called”. Second, they had to “choose” to answer the “call” by saying, “Yes, I'll go”. Third, they had accept to dress in the “wedding garment” to actually enter the wedding. So the definition of those who made it into the wedding are those that “heard the call”, “answered the call”, and “were willing to accept to wear the wedding garment”. This almost sounds like Calvinism doesn't it? But, it's not, look again.

Every single person mentioned, other than the servants, heard the call. With the exception of the man that refused to wear the wedding garment, the people that actually made it into the wedding, were the people that “chose” to take the gracious “call” of the father. Additionally, because they realized that this was a gracious “call” (one they did not deserve), they also accepted the wedding garments. They knew their “garments” were not sufficient to enter in. Hence, the  people that made it into the wedding, “chose” to answer a gracious “call”, and “chose” to wear the proper “garment”.

While the father in the parable did not know who would, and wouldn't answer the call, and come to the wedding, the Heavenly Father did. Hence, Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God the Father (because He is God) “foreknew” all those that would answer the call, and accept the proper wedding garment. Hence, He predestinated these people (who would be like those in the parable, that made it into the wedding) to be conformed to the image of His Son. This does not mean He predestinated them to “chose” Him, it means that He knew who would choose Him. The entire basis for verse 30 are the words “For whom he did foreknow” in verse 29.

Finally, John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

This is another one of those verses like Matthew 22:14, by itself it looks like the Calvinists may have something. But look back just one verse, and my how things change.
John 6: 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Look at those words, “For Jesus knew from the beginning”. Is this beginning to look familiar? How did He know? Because He is God. John 10:30  “I and my Father are one.” Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus knew from the beginning. He did not make people “choose” to believe, or not believe, but, He did know who would, and who wouldn't.


John 6: 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Remember Matthew 22? It was the father that sent out the call, it was the father that provided the wedding garment, but it was the people that make the choices.

I truly understand that it is the grace of the Father (which we do not deserve) that sends out the call, without which we could have no salvation. But God our Heavenly Father, leaves it to us to answer the the call, and accept the wedding garment.

I have been accused of taking scripture out of context a number of times in this thread, but I ask those who have been following along, isn't that what just happened with the question, “Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?”

Jack

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2013, 12:03:40 am »
Quote
I have been accused of taking scripture out of context a number of times in this thread, but I ask those who have been following along, isn't that what just happened with the question, “Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?”

Matthew 22:14 is a conclusion of the parable.

This is from John Wesley the Arminian

22:1
Jesus answering, spake - That is, spake with reference to what had just past.
22:2
A king, who made a marriage feast for his son - So did God, when he brought his first - begotten into the world.
22:3
Them that were invited - Namely, the Jews.
22:4
Fatlings - Fatted beasts and fowls.
22:5
One to his farm, another to his merchandise - One must mind what he has; another, gain what he wants. How many perish by misusing lawful things!
22:7
The king sending forth his troops - The Roman armies employed of God for that purpose. Destroyed those murderers - Primarily the Jews.
22:8
Go into the highways - The word properly signifies, the by - ways, or turnings of the road.
22:10
They gathered all - By preaching every where.
22:11
The guest - The members of the visible Church.
22:12
A wedding garment - The righteousness of Christ, first imputed, then implanted. It may easily be observed, this has no relation to the Lord's Supper, but to God's proceeding at the last day.
22:14
Many are called; few chosen - Many hear; few believe. Yea, many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible Church.

Note that even Wesley says that the few that believe are the CHOSEN.

You did it again Jack! You stopped short.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want (CHOOSE) to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go ? You have words of eternal life. 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil ?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

 I think most the readers will conclude that both Matthew 22 and John 6 teach of an inward calling and external calling.

 Actually when you look at this it is a perfect example of the two types of callings, a general calling and an effective calling. We don't know how many disciples left only that it was many, but we do know the 12 the Christ had chosen stayed with Christ. And we also see that these 12 were the only ones that Christ himself had chosen. We are also reminded that Christ chose Judas to betray him.

Have a nice week end Jack.

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2013, 12:17:33 am »
Fat,

I do not believe all were saved, but those who chose to look at the brazen serpent after they were bitten, did live. Key word, "chose".

Jack

Now that is totally insane Jack, why would one who believed not want to look upon the brazen serpent so that he may live? So obviously the ones that looked upon the serpent were the ones that believed, this was an act of faith. Those that did not look died because they had no faith, and without faith it is impossible to please Him.( Hebrews 11:6 )

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2013, 11:53:12 am »
Now that is totally insane Jack, why would one who believed not want to look upon the brazen serpent so that he may live? So obviously the ones that looked upon the serpent were the ones that believed, this was an act of faith. Those that did not look died because they had no faith, and without faith it is impossible to please Him.( Hebrews 11:6 )

First of all, the reason for the serpents was because the people were murmuring. God said, to live, they had to look. Yes indeed, it took faith. It took faith that brought about action. If faith does cause action, it is worthless.

Jack

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2013, 12:58:58 pm »
First of all, the reason for the serpents was because the people were murmuring. God said, to live, they had to look. Yes indeed, it took faith. It took faith that brought about action. If faith does cause action, it is worthless.

Jack

First of all I believe you meant to say if faith does not cause action it is worthless, James message.

I do not like to leave post unanswered that may mislead the casual reader. The reason God sent the serpent plague upon the Jews was to bring them to repentance, which it did. And as you pointed out the bronze serpent was held up as their salvation. The fiery serpents sent to plague the Jews was a general call for all the Jews to repent, they did not. But for those who did repent God gave them, by his saving grace, life. This story really has nothing to do with the subject of predestination or effect of calling.  There were those in the camps that believed and there were those in the camps that did not believe. WHY< HOW COULD ANT OF THEM NOT BELIEVE AFTER ALL THEY HAD BEEN THROUGH? And I repeat myself this was a test of faith (believing). The question of predestination is about how those who believe came to believe.


Numbers 21:7  So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us."

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2013, 08:26:46 am »
Fat,

I am going to address (in a little more detail), the "external" and "internal" call. However, since I have come to the realization that your particular view of Calvinism differs from others:

JN Horn posted:

"I am continually amazed in the number of people that believe replacement theology is the same as covenant theology."

You posted:

"Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity."

You also posted:

"This is from John Wesley the Arminian"

Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.

I would like you to explain how the internal call takes place. This way I can answer your points directly, without you telling me I'm not addressing your 'sect' of Calvinism.

Jack

Fat

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Re: predestination
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2013, 08:56:25 am »
Quote
Fat,

I am going to address (in a little more detail), the "external" and "internal" call. However, since I have come to the realization that your particular view of Calvinism differs from others:

JN Horn posted:

"I am continually amazed in the number of people that believe replacement theology is the same as covenant theology."

You posted:

"Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity."

You also posted:

"This is from John Wesley the Arminian"

Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.

I would like you to explain how the internal call takes place. This way I can answer your points directly, without you telling me I'm not addressing your 'sect' of Calvinism.

Jack

I'm posting from my phone so please excuse me Jack if it gets a little messy.

I can't answer for JB.
You can follow the link to the quote I posted on covenant theology .

You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you? At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice. The extreme biblical  example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus.

You can look around in your church and see those that have received the external: not internal calling. I'm sure that you are aware that many of the people in your church who come every Sunday and participate are not saved. You see all over the world where people have heard the gospel and denied it.

Quote
Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.

Wesley was not a bad man even Spurgeons praised him. After all even the broken clock is right twice a day.

Moss

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Re: predestination
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2013, 10:47:55 am »
Phat

Look at the calling of Matthews I think is as extreme as that of Paul. A rich wealthy tax collector loved by the Romans and hated by the Jews.

Jack Koons

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Re: predestination
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2013, 11:54:48 am »
Fat,

I would refer to your reference of "Wikipedia", except for the facts that: 1) The material in "Wikipedia" hardly give enough information to teach a "Calvinism 101" course; and 2) With language such as "some Calvinists believe" being used repetitiously, it is not suitable to use as a proper reference.

You stated:

"You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you? At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice. The extreme biblical  example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus."

You just said a lot of things; so please allow me to 'break' this into smaller pieces.

1) "You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. "

I'm pleased to know that you believe that I have received the "internal" call of the Father, which would mean (according to you), that I am part of the "elect".

2) "Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you?"

We really need to break this down even further.

A. "Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins ..."?

B. "and you realize that you needed to change your life ..."

C. "And asked for the grace that Christ was offering you?"

3) "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice."

A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms,"

B. "but you did have that choice."

4) "The extreme biblical  example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus."

Fat, what you are now getting into is the letter "I" in T.U.L.I.P.; Irresistible Grace. The only problem with your presentation is sentence 3), B. above: "but you did have that choice." (There are more "doctrinal issues", but in your actual presentation of Predestination, this is a problem.)

Your entire argument supporting predestination is that we don't have a choice (in case you weren't aware, that is the meaning of having a "free will".)

You just stated that I "did have that choice".

In sentence 3) A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms," you are saying I did not have the ability to say, "No"; but then say I had a choice in the same complete sentence.

All this time you have been saying, I had NO CHOICE; now, you just said, (about me), "but you did have that choice".

Jack