Author Topic: Is there another way?  (Read 8018 times)

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Jack Koons

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Is there another way?
« on: June 20, 2013, 08:48:31 am »
Is it possible for God to be sovereign, AND allow man to exercise his free will, at the same time?

That is the million dollar question!

Calvinism on one end of the spectrum, believing on the absolute sovereignty of God; and Arminianism on the other end of the spectrum, believing in the absolute will of man; or, is there something else?

Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism?

These are just two examples of major Doctrines, absolutely opposed to the other; but could there be a balance between the two?

Why is it necessary for men to hold on to one end of the spectrum so hard, that to even consider any other possibility; would be absolute heresy?

Jack

Fat

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 10:02:29 am »
Is it possible for God to be sovereign, AND allow man to exercise his free will, at the same time?

That is the million dollar question!

Calvinism on one end of the spectrum, believing on the absolute sovereignty of God; and Arminianism on the other end of the spectrum, believing in the absolute will of man; or, is there something else?

Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism?

These are just two examples of major Doctrines, absolutely opposed to the other; but could there be a balance between the two?

Why is it necessary for men to hold on to one end of the spectrum so hard, that to even consider any other possibility; would be absolute heresy?

Jack


The answer to your question is in the bible.

2 Tim 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove , rebuke , exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


I got a good idea Jack, let's all believe the truth.

Zant Law

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 11:33:23 am »
There is only one way and that road is narrow.
You're going to see many people with many different doctrines in heaven, however they will all arrive there on the same road.

Jack Koons

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 08:46:06 am »
Hello Zant,

Indeed the road to Heaven is narrow. The we face in theology is that as we pass through time men have a tendency to get 'hung up' on some point of doctrine, and that point then gets 'tweaked' just a little bit from 'center'. That is the reason we have doctrines in Christianity that are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Theologians get so tied up in the pride of being taught, and therefore 'knowing' the truth; they refuse to actually do a balanced study of God's Word on their own. What we end up with in our schools and churches are nothing more than 'parrots' saying "Polly want a cracker". Students are trained to answer general questions, but when faced with things not covered by their teachers, the student (possibly now a teacher) only has the generic answer that doesn't address the question as presented.

For instance, on my topic, "The infallibility of the Bible", most people only know what they have been taught by men like Semler (via his writings), Griesbach (via his writings), Metzger (via his writings), and Wallace rationalism and textual criticism to the point that God's word is becoming the word of men, rather than the word of God. But if you take the time to study the issue yourself, and look at history's evidence outside of these critics; history unfolds in a whole new light.

We are told as we go through college, that looking further into any teaching 'outside of that faith' would be sin.

When I graduated, I found that as I read, and study, I realized that the 'discipline' I had been studying, didn't always 'align' with certain Bible truths. With the Bible as my anchor, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit; I began studying 'the other end' of the spectrum. Things began to make sense.

Yes the road is narrow. You see, I believe man has been, is now, and will always be saved by God's grace. (Does that sound familiar?) I also believe God is sovereign. Finally, I also believe I have a free will (no I'm not a Free Will Baptist).

Jack

Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 12:46:22 pm »
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 His statement really narrows it down to the point.

macuser

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 01:51:43 pm »
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 His statement really narrows it down to the point.

Absolutely and to follow that up, Romans 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE ;

Moss

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 12:45:07 pm »
Quote from: Jack
We are told as we go through college, that looking further into any teaching 'outside of that faith' would be sin.

By 'that faith' I assume you mean denomination or religion. Just for my own curiosity Jack, what college teaches this?

Quote from: Jack
I realized that the 'discipline' I had been studying, didn't always 'align' with certain Bible truths.

Then I would say if your teachings were not aligned with the Bible, you were taught by false teachers.

Galatians 1:8-9

Hal

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 03:32:37 pm »
I just post 2 Tim 3:16-17 on another thread. Use the Scriptures to test doctrine and teachings of your church to see that they conform with God's will. If your church is teaching you something that is not biblically correct, leave it.
Remember that when you stay at a church that is not biblically correct you are condoning its teachings. This may affect others that value your judgment into accepting the false teachings.

Jack Koons

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 10:05:16 am »
That's good advice, no one should remain in a church they do not agree with doctrinally. (I must admit however, I believe about 95% of church goers, have no idea what they believe, or why.)

So with that said:

Since Adam and Eve knew who God was, were they predestined to disobey God, and thereby bring a sin nature upon all mankind that followed?

Jack

Hal

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 11:05:09 am »
Quote
Since Adam and Eve knew who God was, were they predestined to disobey God, and thereby bring a sin nature upon all mankind that followed?

It looks like Paul believe so.

Ephesians 1:4 NAS
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Jack Koons

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 12:58:26 pm »
So Adam and Eve were created pure, and without sin. He talked with God in the cool of the day. Even though God made a covenant with Adam, Adam in fact had no choice in his breaking of the covenant.

So the the greatest part of souls were created to be condemned by God. Why is man sinful? Because he was forced to sin by the preordained council of God, for His own good pleasure. Just like the events of Joseph's life were preordained by God; the rebellion of Adam was preordained by God.

Wow!

Jack

Hal

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 01:36:34 pm »
I am sorry that the scriptures do not agree with you there is not much I can do with that.

Adam and Eve prove that man is sinful on his own and he needs no help from God.
You have to admit yourself that God knew Adam would sin when he put the tree in the garden.

iPhone post  ???

clark thompson

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 04:37:22 pm »
When it come to these small things I do have my views but will not fight or agrue about them. I think it is more important for someone to come to know the Lord then decide for themselves these things.

Hal

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2013, 05:45:02 pm »
Clark
You're correct in one way, this is not a salvation issue but it is a search for the truth. People on both sides of these issues will be standing next to each other in Christ company in heaven someday laughing about it.  :)

Jack Koons

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Re: Is there another way?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 12:37:45 pm »
Have you ever wondered why there was a distinction between murder and manslaughter in the Old Testament Law? It is because God is a righteous judge.

Murder was a deliberate act, while manslaughter was not. God is about justice. Not only is God about justice, but He cares more about animals, than some people care about other people.

Notice: Jonah 4: 11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

The implication here by God is that in the 'overthrow' will not only affect the people, but the cattle as well.

My point in that God does not kill needlessly. He values life. If there would be no other reason for predestination not to be correct, this would suffice.

I am not saying the people that are condemned are condemned unjustly, I am saying just the opposite! They are being condemned because God gave them a multitude of witness as to not only His existence, but also to His redemption plan; and they WILLFULLY turned Him down.

Back in the mid 80's to mid 90's I was involved in street evangelism. One Friday night I witnessed to two young Marines about needing Christ. In the end, they looked at me and said, 'Preacher, we know your right'. They shared with me how they knew they had to get saved, but wanted to 'enjoy' being young. They told me they would see me in a few weeks and accept Christ as Saviour. They walked away, got on their motorcycles, and began 'cruising'. About five minutes later they rode past blowing their horns and waving. Then about ten minutes later we heard a loud crash. Those same two young Marines were trying to beat a red light at an intersection. Unfortunately, they failed; and there was a tractor-trailer coming the other way. It was one block from where we were. Both Marines were killed instantly.

Why am I telling you this?

Ezekiel 33 says that God has called us to be a watchman on the wall. To sound the trumpet, and warn the people of danger. If those Marines would have walked by me, and would not have given them warning; their blood would have been on my hands. If they were just two young wicked Marines that weren't part of the 'elect', why would their blood be on my hands? God didn't choose them. They were wicked, and ungodly; they got what they deserved, right? That is predestination.

The reason their blood would have been on my hands is because their souls are precious to God the Father.

Their blood, however, is not on my hands. These two young Marines will stand before God and have no reason to give God for refusing Him. Fifteen minutes before they entered eternity those two Marines were warned of the danger ahead. I do not want to make it sound like I don't care about those Marines, I most definitely did, That is why we were there witnessing on the streets. The point is, I have them the gospel, showing them their need to be saved. But in the final analysts, they CHOOSE not to accept Christ as Saviour; and that is why they are condemned, with their blood on their own hands.

Jack