Author Topic: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?  (Read 4417 times)

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JB Horn

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 03:26:15 pm »
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Now back to the question: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?


Romans 10:14 NAS
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed ? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard ? And how will they hear without a preacher ?

Romans 10:17 NAS
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

You know back in the days of Paul there was no New Testament and no way to read about Christ except for the letters that were being written and distributed amongst the Church at that time. One other fact is that most the people of those days did not read, they listen to the Scriptures being read to them at the synagogues.

Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?



calluna

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 03:36:34 pm »
Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?

Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.

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Hal

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 10:59:44 am »


You know back in the days of Paul there was no New Testament and no way to read about Christ except for the letters that were being written and distributed amongst the Church at that time. One other fact is that most the people of those days did not read, they listen to the Scriptures being read to them at the synagogues.

Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?

You can actually get the Bible on tapes now, you don't even have to know how to read you can hear in many different languages. Does the reader of the tapes have to be a Christian? I don't think so, I think you still get the message from the Holy Ghost.

macuser

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 11:31:15 pm »

Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?

The Gideons have some wonderful stories about how people have come to salvation by reading their Bibles. Last time they were at our church they told us about a young kid who found one of their Bibles at a dump site under some trash. The kid wanted to learn to read any never had a book before, so we took it home and with the help of his parents he not only learn to read he was led to a salvation and is presently a minister.
I don't think you can say that you have to hear the gospel from any special person. I agree that it is the presence of the Holy Spirit that lead you to your salvation, and not another human being.

Francis Drake

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2013, 01:33:08 pm »
The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.

My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant!

On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.

By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed.

As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.

Amazing, wonderful, powerful stuff........ Except that the outraged Bishop and the chaplain immediately started shouting and screaming at them to stop all that devilish demonic jabbering. The church officials went ballistic and two boys were terrified and humiliated into a crushed tearful silence.

The whole thing was wrapped up and swept under the carpet. Nobody spoke of it again.

Shocked into unbelief, my friend grew up and got on with his life, completely burying the whole event as one of those childhood nightmares best forgotten. His life tumbled on and things gradually descended into a chaos of alcoholism and a broken marriage. Only then did he encounter the gospel again. His wife came to know the Lord and he was persuaded to attend a meeting. It all flooded back. He was gloriously filled with the Holy Spirit again and God started to restore all things.

So yes, most certainly an unbeliever can lead others to Christ. Sadly when they do, these hypocrites all too often do what the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus's time did. Shut up heaven against men. Neither entering themselves and making sure that those who are trying cannot enter.


JB Horn

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2013, 02:37:13 pm »
A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.

My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant!

On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.

By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed.

As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.

Amazing, wonderful, powerful stuff........ Except that the outraged Bishop and the chaplain immediately started shouting and screaming at them to stop all that devilish demonic jabbering. The church officials went ballistic and two boys were terrified and humiliated into a crushed tearful silence.

The whole thing was wrapped up and swept under the carpet. Nobody spoke of it again.

Shocked into unbelief, my friend grew up and got on with his life, completely burying the whole event as one of those childhood nightmares best forgotten. His life tumbled on and things gradually descended into a chaos of alcoholism and a broken marriage. Only then did he encounter the gospel again. His wife came to know the Lord and he was persuaded to attend a meeting. It all flooded back. He was gloriously filled with the Holy Spirit again and God started to restore all things.

So yes, most certainly an unbeliever can lead others to Christ. Sadly when they do, these hypocrites all too often do what the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus's time did. Shut up heaven against men. Neither entering themselves and making sure that those who are trying cannot enter.
:)

He will have all His sheep in the end.

John 6:39 CSB
This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise them up on the last day.

calluna

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2013, 04:52:30 pm »
A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.

Small 'b'.

Quote
My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant! On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.

By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed

Or foolishly decided to make something happen.

Quote
As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.

The Bible didn't promise.

To find a person who speaks in tongues and has the essential fruits of the Spirit is something of a miracle!

calluna

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2013, 04:54:58 pm »


He will have all His sheep in the end.

But only the Father knows who they are.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2013, 04:59:12 pm »
But only the Father knows who they are.

John 10:14 CSB
"I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,

John 10:27 CSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.

calluna

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 04:44:27 am »
John 10:14 CSB
"I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,

But not each other.

JB Horn

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 05:24:16 am »
But not each other.

True, not all the time, and never until they accept Christ.

Francis Drake

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2013, 02:08:55 pm »
1) Small 'b'.

2) Or foolishly decided to make something happen.

3) The Bible didn't promise.

4) To find a person who speaks in tongues and has the essential fruits of the Spirit is something of a miracle!

1) calluna, thank you for pointing out that I should have not used a B for bishop. Really useful stuff!

2) Or foolishly decided to make something happen?
Are you serious? These were two innocent children who were fearful but expectant about what was supposed to happen that day. They had heard absolutely nothing about speaking in tongues, it was not part of the confirmation classes. They were baptized in the Spirit simply happened because in their foolishness they believed what they were told from the bible, by an authority figure who just happened to be a total unbeliever.

3) The bible most certainly did promise!
Jesus himself promised that the Heavenly Father would pour out his Spirit on those who simply ask.

4) Your caustic comment, that someone who speaks in tongues and also bears the fruits of the spirit, being a miracle, speaks volumes about you alone.

calluna

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 02:59:30 pm »
1) calluna, thank you for pointing out that I should have not used a B for bishop.

... because it validated the criminality of those who have murdered Christians. Christians will be grateful.

Quote
3) The bible most certainly did promise!
Jesus himself promised that the Heavenly Father would pour out his Spirit on those who simply ask.

True. But that is not relevant to your claim, is it. And you won't find a verse that is.

A highly predictable response, overall.


Francis Drake

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2013, 01:28:45 am »
calluna
Quote
... because it validated the criminality of those who have murdered Christians. Christians will be grateful.
Care to give an explanation?


Quote
True. But that is not relevant to your claim, is it. And you won't find a verse that is.

Care to give an explanation?



Theodore A. Jones

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Re: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2013, 07:38:59 pm »
The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

No.