Bible discussion
Bible Talk => General => Topic started by: Fat on July 29, 2012, 06:50:21 pm
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A lot of churches nowadays are asking for unity amongst the denominations. They had the idea that the church should band together to accomplish a single purpose. This may be for the purpose of feeding the poor, ministering to prisoners, or is one preacher said pushing the darkness out of the city.
At first glance this looks very appealing but it leads to the question why are these denominations separated in the first place? It cannot be a small thing for a group of Christians to feel that there doctrine is so different from others that they must break away and form their own denomination. It's obvious that these denominations must feel that the other denominations are in error, this error being serious enough for them to turn from that church or denomination and form their own church. Some of these differences may be manifested by accusations of a false gospel or a loss of salvation. Such is the case when the nominations argue over the deity of Christ, or sacraments the necessary for salvation.
There is quite a dilemma here, on the one hand we have chosen to be separate from each other, but on the other hand we see a common need for our community. It may very well be that these needs cannot be accomplished by one church within the community. Is it possible for the different denominations to work together without yoking themselves together? Can the work be divided up so that each church will be able to do its part without appearing to condone the doctrine and teachings of the other churches? Maybe the work could be semi-anonymous for assets at a food bank it might be called Christian food center. Then there could be a list of churches that are supporting the food center available to those receiving the benefits.
In any case working next to somebody who you believe is condemned to hell and that is calling himself a Christian the same is you represent yourself to be, would not really foster unity in my estimation.
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I don't like the way you phrased your poll question.
How about, Should churches set-aside their differences for the good of the body?
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I don't like the way you phrased your poll question.
How about, Should churches set-aside their differences for the good of the body?
That is the neat thing about starting your own thread you can write the polls anyway you want to. You are not required to participate in the poll if you don't want to Hal.
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I voted yes in your poll, and the reason is is I think there are places where we can work together. I agree with Hal, I think that the word yoke is a little bit strong for your question. Whenever you have a chance you should make it clear to those observing what you're doing that you have doctrine or theological differences with the other churches.
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A lot of churches nowadays are asking for unity amongst the denominations. They had the idea that the church should band together to accomplish a single purpose. This may be for the purpose of feeding the poor, ministering to prisoners, or is one preacher said pushing the darkness out of the city.
At first glance this looks very appealing but it leads to the question why are these denominations separated in the first place? It cannot be a small thing for a group of Christians to feel that there doctrine is so different from others that they must break away and form their own denomination. It's obvious that these denominations must feel that the other denominations are in error, this error being serious enough for them to turn from that church or denomination and form their own church. Some of these differences may be manifested by accusations of a false gospel or a loss of salvation. Such is the case when the nominations argue over the deity of Christ, or sacraments the necessary for salvation.
There is quite a dilemma here, on the one hand we have chosen to be separate from each other, but on the other hand we see a common need for our community. It may very well be that these needs cannot be accomplished by one church within the community. Is it possible for the different denominations to work together without yoking themselves together? Can the work be divided up so that each church will be able to do its part without appearing to condone the doctrine and teachings of the other churches? Maybe the work could be semi-anonymous for assets at a food bank it might be called Christian food center. Then there could be a list of churches that are supporting the food center available to those receiving the benefits.
In any case working next to somebody who you believe is condemned to hell and that is calling himself a Christian the same is you represent yourself to be, would not really foster unity in my estimation.
Jesus only started one Church.
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Jesus only started one Church.
1) He used the small 'c' for church.
2) How many churches does Christ address in the book of Revelation?
3) The use of the word church in the bible referres to assembly of believers.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1577
Original Word Word Origin
ejkklhsiva from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ekklesia 3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
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1) He used the small 'c' for church.
2) How many churches does Christ address in the book of Revelation?
3) The use of the word church in the bible referres to assembly of believers.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1577
Original Word Word Origin
ejkklhsiva from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ekklesia 3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
1) So? He only started one.
2) Those are locations, not separate churches. Just like the Christians in Antioch referred to the leaders of "the Church" as being in Jerusalem. The Church at "such and such a location" is not a unique Church, but a unique location.
3) True. An assembly of believers with known beliefs and leaders with authority who are to be obeyed.
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1) So? He only started one.
2) Those are locations, not separate churches. Just like the Christians in Antioch referred to the leaders of "the Church" as being in Jerusalem. The Church at "such and such a location" is not a unique Church, but a unique location.
3) True. An assembly of believers with known beliefs and leaders with authority who are to be obeyed.
Like I said Fat used a small 'c'hurch not a big 'C'hurch'.
The big 'C'hurch' has no one location until the rapture. It would be more correct to call the big 'C'hurch' the Body of Christ or the Bride of Christ.
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Like I said Fat used a small 'c'hurch not a big 'C'hurch'.
The big 'C'hurch' has no one location until the rapture. It would be more correct to call the big 'C'hurch' the Body of Christ or the Bride of Christ.
I agree that location is irrelevant. However, leadership and authority are important. Jesus started a single church with authority and that church still is led by this same authority. The successors of the apostles lead the catholic church. Every priest has had hands laid on them by a bishop who was anointed by a bishop, etc., all the way back to the apostles.
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I agree that location is irrelevant. However, leadership and authority are important. Jesus started a single church with authority and that church still is led by this same authority. The successors of the apostles lead the catholic church. Every priest has had hands laid on them by a bishop who was anointed by a bishop, etc., all the way back to the apostles.
Peter, as an apostle, had no successor in his office; nor was he bishop of Rome.
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Peter, as an apostle, had no successor in his office; nor was he bishop of Rome.
You are wrong. You have been misinformed. I once believed as you do, but I formed my opinion without first learning the facts.
"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).
"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).
"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).
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You are wrong. You have been misinformed. I once believed as you do, but I formed my opinion without first learning the facts.
"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).
"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).
"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).
Claims made by the church of Rome mean nothing to Christians.
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC, par. 841)
2 Timothy 3:16-17
1 Timothy 2:5
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Claims made by the church of Rome mean nothing to Christians.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
1 Timothy 2:5
So you believe that your bias against the Church entitles you to ignore scriptures that contradict your doctrine? Also, it is important to read the writings of the early Church if you want to understand what the apostles taught their successors.
FYI:
1 Tim 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
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So you believe that your bias against the Church entitles you to ignore scriptures that contradict your doctrine? Also, it is important to read the writings of the early Church if you want to understand what the apostles taught their successors.
FYI:
1 Tim 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
When Satan tempted Christ he tried by twisting gods word, Satan did the same thing in the garden of Eden with Eve.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said , I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
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When Satan tempted Christ he tried by twisting gods word, Satan did the same thing in the garden of Eden with Eve.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said , I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This verse is irrelevant. I have exposed your error using scripture.
I have provided evidence that early Christians believed as Catholics believe today. You are free to ignore this evidence.
Here's more food for thought in case anyone is interested. St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, was eaten by lions in Rome in about 110 AD because he wouldn't denounce his Christian faith.
He wrote several letters, and among his writings are these two quotes. He was clearly a Catholic. Do you believe that John taught him error, or that perhaps there is more to the Catholic Church than you realize?
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 105).
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
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This verse is irrelevant. I have exposed your error using scripture.
I have provided evidence that early Christians believed as Catholics believe today. You are free to ignore this evidence.
Here's more food for thought in case anyone is interested. St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, was eaten by lions in Rome in about 110 AD because he wouldn't denounce his Christian faith.
He wrote several letters, and among his writings are these two quotes. He was clearly a Catholic. Do you believe that John taught him error, or that perhaps there is more to the Catholic Church than you realize?
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 105).
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
You say 2 Corinthians 6:14 has no relevance to CCC, par. 841? Amazing!
I can only find the church of Rome in one place in scripture, Revelation 17. May I suggest that you spend more time with the teachings of the bible and less time with the teachings of your Pharisees.
Read Paul's letters to the early Church if you really care what the 'C'hurch was like.
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You say 2 Corinthians 6:14 has no relevance to CCC, par. 841? Amazing!
I can only find the church of Rome in one place in scripture, Revelation 17. May I suggest that you spend more time with the teachings of the bible and less time with the teachings of your Pharisees.
Read Paul's letters to the early Church if you really care what the 'C'hurch was like.
The Church was originally based in Jerusalem. It didn't come to be based in Rome until late in the 1st century. Jesus only started one Church. We can read in scripture and in early Church documents about this Church.
This Church was given authority by Jesus to make rules, forgive sins in his name, and to spread throughout the world.
What gives you the authority to reject the Church Jesus started?
We are instructed in scripture to obey those who are over us in the Lord. Do you do this?
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The Church was originally based in Jerusalem. It didn't come to be based in Rome until late in the 1st century. Jesus only started one Church. We can read in scripture and in early Church documents about this Church.
This Church was given authority by Jesus to make rules, forgive sins in his name, and to spread throughout the world.
What gives you the authority to reject the Church Jesus started?
We are instructed in scripture to obey those who are over us in the Lord. Do you do this?
Not when it conflicts with Scriptures.
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You church has left the teachings of the scriptures and turned off the narrow road. For instance show me where in the Bible you have been taught to baptize infants.
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Not when it conflicts with Scriptures.
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You church has left the teachings of the scriptures and turned off the narrow road. For instance show me where in the Bible you have been taught to baptize infants.
Wrong again. It is the protestants that have abandoned scripture.
I'll give you some examples:
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."
1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Re: Infant baptism and the scriptural basis thereof:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism)
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Wrong again. It is the protestants that have abandoned scripture.
I'll give you some examples:
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."
1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Re: Infant baptism and the scriptural basis thereof:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism)
Your link shows no infant baptism reference in the Bible. By the way there is no record of Christ ever baptizing anyone.
As far as your scriptures go I whole heartily agree with them when they are interpreted as God meant them to be. And they are keep in context.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
And what about drinking the living water? Don't you believe Christ?
John 4:10 NAS
Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:11 NAS
She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep ; where then do You get that living water?
So does your holy father pee living water?
John 7:38 NAS
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "
To bad your church doesn't teach you how to study the bible and only dictates what it what's you to believe.
There is no salvation in any of the sacraments practiced by both of are churches, and that includes baptism.
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Your link shows no infant baptism reference in the Bible. By the way there is no record of Christ ever baptizing anyone.
As far as your scriptures go I whole heartily agree with them when they are interpreted as God meant them to be. And they are keep in context.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
And what about drinking the living water? Don't you believe Christ?
John 4:10 NAS
Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:11 NAS
She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep ; where then do You get that living water?
So does your holy father pee living water?
John 7:38 NAS
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "
To bad your church doesn't teach you how to study the bible and only dictates what it what's you to believe.
There is no salvation in any of the sacraments practiced by both of are churches, and that includes baptism.
I believe all the scriptures you posted, but they say nothing about what I've already posted, which you don't believe.
You clearly didn't read the article I linked. There are multiple references in scripture to entire households being baptized on the same day the leader of the household accepts Christ. There is nothing in scripture that precludes infant baptism and much that indicates that it was practiced.
In addition, we see in historical writings that infant baptism, the new circumcision, has always been part of Christianity.
Question for you: Does the power of baptism come from God or from man?
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I believe all the scriptures you posted, but they say nothing about what I've already posted, which you don't believe.
You clearly didn't read the article I linked. There are multiple references in scripture to entire households being baptized on the same day the leader of the household accepts Christ. There is nothing in scripture that precludes infant baptism and much that indicates that it was practiced.
In addition, we see in historical writings that infant baptism, the new circumcision, has always been part of Christianity.
Question for you: Does the power of baptism come from God or from man?
Like I said there is no infant baptism in the bible!
There is only power in the baptism that Christ gives. There is no power in water baptism, and please don't give me Mark 16:16 that was added by your church 1100 years after Marks death.
Christ never baptized anyone when He was on earth in the flesh, WHY?
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Like I said there is no infant baptism in the bible!
There is only power in the baptism that Christ gives. There is no power in water baptism, and please don't give me Mark 16:16 that was added by your church 1100 years after Marks death.
Christ never baptized anyone when He was on earth in the flesh, WHY?
Infant baptism is in the bible. Multiple entire households were baptized. You may deny this but that is not what the apostles taught their followers.
Jesus told his disciples to baptize the whole world. Jesus started a Church, he gave this Church leaders, he gave these leaders his authority, and he gave these leaders specific instructions.
You are free to reject these instructions.
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Infant baptism is in the bible. Multiple entire households were baptized. You may deny this but that is not what the apostles taught their followers.
Jesus told his disciples to baptize the whole world. Jesus started a Church, he gave this Church leaders, he gave these leaders his authority, and he gave these leaders specific instructions.
You are free to reject these instructions.
No infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.
The reason is very simple look back to what Philip was asked by the Egyptian on the requirements to meet baptism.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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No infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.
Entire households were baptized in the bible. If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.
Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity. Baptism imparts grace from God. Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?
"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).
"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).
"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).
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Entire households were baptized in the bible. If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.
Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity. Baptism imparts grace from God. Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?
"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).
"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).
"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).
I think Law ask you to show him in the Bible infant baptism.
Tradition
Bible VersionsCSBMarkMark 7Mark 7:3-13
Mark 7::7 They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men. 8 Disregarding the command of God, you keep the tradition of men." 9 He also said to them, "You completely invalidate God's command in order to maintain your tradition! 10 For Moses said: Honor your father and your mother; and, Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death. 11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or mother: Whatever benefit you might have received from me is Corban ' " (that is, a gift [committed to the temple]), 12 "you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 You revoke God's word by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things."
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Entire households were baptized in the bible. If you claim that these households had no infants or small children then you will have to provide evidence for this.
Infant baptism has always been part of Christianity. Baptism imparts grace from God. Who would not allow little children to receive this grace?
"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).
"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).
"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).
Again no infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.
Can an infant meet the requirements set by Philip?
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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Again no infants were ever baptised in the bible. If so show me.
Can an infant meet the requirements set by Philip?
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
He was speaking to an adult, not a child.
Here's what Jesus said:
Matt 19:14
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
The early Christians practiced infant baptism. Why should I accept your word that it is invalid?
You seem to want to hinder the little children.
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He was speaking to an adult, not a child.
Here's what Jesus said:
Matt 19:14
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
The early Christians practiced infant baptism. Why should I accept your word that it is invalid?
You seem to want to hinder the little children.
That verse has nothing to do with baptism.
I am going to type this real slow so you can understand it. There is no biblical record of Christ ever baptizing anyone, adult or child.
Do you know why He did not baptize?
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That verse has nothing to do with baptism.
I am going to type this real slow so you can understand it. There is no biblical record of Christ ever baptizing anyone, adult or child.
Do you know why He did not baptize?
Jesus told the apostles to baptize, and they did, including entire househholds. Households include extended families and servants.
What evidence do you have that there were no infants and small children in these households?
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Jesus told the apostles to baptize, and they did, including entire househholds. Households include extended families and servants.
What evidence do you have that there were no infants and small children in these households?
The Bible is not a mystery God told us what is important and is in the Scriptures. What he told us about baptism is that a person must have knowledge of Christ. Can you give any other reason why the question was put the Philip and recorded in the scripture?
If what you say is true why don't you find the Catholic priest who has a pilot license, load up a cropduster with holy water and have him fly over East Los Angeles and save everyone?
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The Bible is not a mystery God told us what is important and is in the Scriptures. What he told us about baptism is that a person must have knowledge of Christ. Can you give any other reason why the question was put the Philip and recorded in the scripture?
If what you say is true why don't you find the Catholic priest who has a pilot license, load up a cropduster with holy water and have him fly over East Los Angeles and save everyone?
You claim to know that infant baptism is not biblical, yet you can show no proof that infants were not baptized when the bible tells us that entire households were baptized. We have early Christian writings which state that the apostles taught that infants should be baptized. Why should I believe you?
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You claim to know that infant baptism is not biblical, yet you can show no proof that infants were not baptized when the bible tells us that entire households were baptized. We have early Christian writings which state that the apostles taught that infants should be baptized. Why should I believe you?
More biblical support for infant baptism:
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.
Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.
1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.
Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.
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More biblical support for infant baptism:
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.
Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.
1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.
Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.
Not one, not one verse can you give me.
By the way New Testament circumcision is circumcision of the heart apparently never got that for the Bible.
Romans 2:29 KJV
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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Not one, not one verse can you give me.
By the way New Testament circumcision is circumcision of the heart apparently never got that for the Bible.
Romans 2:29 KJV
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I've given you many verses which make it clear that baptism was not to be denied anyone.
You have provided no verses that say that infants and small children were not baptized. All you have to offer is your man made opinion.
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I've given you many verses which make it clear that baptism was not to be denied anyone.
You have provided no verses that say that infants and small children were not baptized. All you have to offer is your man made opinion.
LOL. Can you show me any verses that prove chickens were not baptized?
So now Philip lied to the Egyptian.
Go to mass and read your prayer, tell Mary I said hi, and thanks for raising my Savior. Let me know if you see any tears on her statue.
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Interesting.
The question was asked by somebody why didn't Christ baptize, every Christian, well most anyway, can answer that question but I've never seen a Catholic or a Mormon able answer it.
Ever wonder how many Bibles are just sitting around in bookshelves collecting dust?
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Interesting.
The question was asked by somebody why didn't Christ baptize, every Christian, well most anyway, can answer that question but I've never seen a Catholic or a Mormon able answer it.
Ever wonder how many Bibles are just sitting around in bookshelves collecting dust?
Catholics believe the entire bible, not just selected excerpts.
Catholics believe that the apostles were the leaders of the Church Jesus founded. Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make rules regarding faith and morals, including the authority to appoint successors. Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name. Catholics believe that the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church Jesus started. Catholics believe that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus as he instructed. Catholics believe that Jesus is with the Church until the end of the world. Catholics believe that those who live and believe in Christ will never die. Catholics believe that disputes among believers should be resolved by the Church. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into ALL truth.
Protestants reject these biblical truths.
FYI:
John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
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Catholics believe the entire bible, not just selected excerpts.
Catholics believe that the apostles were the leaders of the Church Jesus founded. Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make rules regarding faith and morals, including the authority to appoint successors. Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name. Catholics believe that the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church Jesus started. Catholics believe that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus as he instructed. Catholics believe that Jesus is with the Church until the end of the world. Catholics believe that those who live and believe in Christ will never die. Catholics believe that disputes among believers should be resolved by the Church. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into ALL truth.
Protestants reject these biblical truths.
FYI:
John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
If you're going to debate a subject you should study it first. Before you debate the Bible you should read it.
Look down a few verses from John 3:22 to John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) KJV
Are you making the claim that Jesus did baptize with water? Is this what your church teaches?
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If you're going to debate a subject you should study it first. Before you debate the Bible you should read it.
Look down a few verses from John 3:22 to John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) KJV
Are you making the claim that Jesus did baptize with water? Is this what your church teaches?
That's what the bible says.
This might not be a contradiction. John 3:22 doesn't say who Jesus baptized at that time. It might mean that he baptized his disciples at that time.
We also might consider the possibility that Jesus performed baptisms at first, until the number of people arriving for baptism became so great that he was required to delegate the baptism to his disciples.
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That's what the bible says.
This might not be a contradiction. John 3:22 doesn't say who Jesus baptized at that time. It might mean that he baptized his disciples at that time.
We also might consider the possibility that Jesus performed baptisms at first, until the number of people arriving for baptism became so great that he was required to delegate the baptism to his disciples.
Is it your belief that Christ baptized while He was on earth and is that what your church teaches?
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Is it your belief that Christ baptized while He was on earth and is that what your church teaches?
The Church doesn't take a position because scripture and tradition are ambiguous.
How is it relevant to your relationship with Jesus?
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The Church doesn't take a position because scripture and tradition are ambiguous.
How is it relevant to your relationship with Jesus?
Ambiguous!
Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him
Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?
It is relevant because we grow close to Christ by reading the Word.
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Ambiguous!
Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him
Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?
It is relevant because we grow close to Christ by reading the Word.
The Word said that Jesus baptized. That's why it is ambiguous. You feel comfortable ignoring scripture and following your own man made opinion. That's your right.
St. Jerome- "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."
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The Word said that Jesus baptized. That's why it is ambiguous. You feel comfortable ignoring scripture and following your own man made opinion. That's your right.
St. Jerome- "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."
And you refuse to study the scripture.
Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?
I am repairing a deck right now and have to run back inside everytime my iPhone beeps so please answer the question.
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And you refuse to study the scripture.
Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?
Of course. The bible is the Word of God.
Do you believe John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
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Of course. The bible is the Word of God.
Do you believe John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
I believe all the Bible when taken in context.
Now if Deuteronomy 18:22 is true then what does it say if Christ baptized with water about John the Baptist?
matthew 3:11 KJV
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
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I believe all the Bible when taken in context.
Now if Deuteronomy 18:22 is true then what does it say if Christ baptized with water about John the Baptist?
matthew 3:11 KJV
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Jesus is capable of doing more than one thing, right?
Do you believe Jesus gave the apostles his authority?
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Jesus is capable of doing more than one thing, right?
Not if it contradict the prophets. So was John the Baptist a prophet or not?
Do you believe Jesus gave the apostles his authority?
Limited authority.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
What does this mean to you?
Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained
Now here is the one you what to get to. Doe you know what the word remit and retain means in this context (hint use strong's)
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Not if it contradict the prophets. So was John the Baptist a prophet or not?
Limited authority.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
What does this mean to you?
Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained
Now here is the one you what to get to. Doe you know what the word remit and retain means in this context (hint use strong's)
John the Baptist didn't say Jesus wouldn't baptize with water. You need to read more carefully. He merely said that he would do much more.
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name, or to refuse to forgive sins in his name.
That's what remit and retain mean.
You deny this because it contradicts your man made denomination's teachings.
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Matt 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
John 20:21
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
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John the Baptist didn't say Jesus wouldn't baptize with water. You need to read more carefully. He merely said that he would do much more.
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name, or to refuse to forgive sins in his name.
That's what remit and retain mean.
You deny this because it contradicts your man made denomination's teachings.
Wrong the word forgive is not used here for a reason if He wanted to say forgive He would have. He used the words remit and retain for a reason. Do some research on the greek used. I'll give you another hint, it has to do with the great commission.
John said:"he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
Are you really interested in the Word that God gave you?
Here is another fun exercise you might find interesting. Compare what Jesus accused the Pharisees of and how your church is operating today.
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Wrong the word forgive is not used here for a reason if He wanted to say forgive He would have. He used the words remit and retain for a reason. Do some research on the greek used. I'll give you another hint, it has to do with the great commission.
John said:"he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
Are you really interested in the Word that God gave you?
You just keep repeating the same thing.
Question one: Did John say Jesus wouldn't baptize with water, or are you just making an assumption?
Question two:
Do you have a dictionary?
re·mit [ri-mit] Show IPA verb, re·mit·ted, re·mit·ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to transmit or send (money, a check, etc.) to a person or place, usually in payment.
2.
to refrain from inflicting or enforcing, as a punishment, sentence, etc.
3.
to refrain from exacting, as a payment or service.
4.
to pardon or forgive (a sin, offense, etc.)
Also, check out how the majority of protestant scholars translate the greek:
http://bible.cc/john/20-23.htm (http://bible.cc/john/20-23.htm)
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Matt 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
John 20:21
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
Matthew 28:19 CSB
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
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Matthew 28:19 CSB
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
And therefore....?
Did Jesus give the apostles his authority or not?
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You just keep repeating the same thing.
Question one: Did John say Jesus wouldn't baptize with water, or are you just making an assumption?
Question two:
Do you have a dictionary?
re·mit [ri-mit] Show IPA verb, re·mit·ted, re·mit·ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to transmit or send (money, a check, etc.) to a person or place, usually in payment.
2.
to refrain from inflicting or enforcing, as a punishment, sentence, etc.
3.
to refrain from exacting, as a payment or service.
4.
to pardon or forgive (a sin, offense, etc.)
Also, check out how the majority of protestant scholars translate the greek:
http://bible.cc/john/20-23.htm (http://bible.cc/john/20-23.htm)
The word is never used to mean forgive by John. John uses the same greek word on these verses: John 4:3; John 4:28; John 4:52; John 8:29; John 10:12; John 11:44; John 11:48; John 12:7; John 14:18; John 14:27; John 16:28; John 16:32; John 18:8.
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And therefore....?
Did Jesus give the apostles his authority or not?
Limited, yes.
Just a note, if your trying to say that baptism saves and therefore they forgive by baptism. It does not save, there is no correlation.
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The word is never used to mean forgive by John. John uses the same greek word on these verses: John 4:3; John 4:28; John 4:52; John 8:29; John 10:12; John 11:44; John 11:48; John 12:7; John 14:18; John 14:27; John 16:28; John 16:32; John 18:8.
It was meant to mean forgive. In fact, that's what it means.
Sorry.
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Limited, yes.
Did Jesus send the apostles as the Father sent him?
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Did Jesus send the apostles as the Father sent him?
Limited.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
What do you think, was Peter sent to give you eternal life? But you don't understand do you?
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It was meant to mean forgive. In fact, that's what it means.
Sorry.
No it's not, at least in the manner your holy father would have you believe.
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
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No it's not, at least in the manner your holy father would have you believe.
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
You are repeating yourself again. I guess you have reached a dead end.
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name. Jesus promised the apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth and that he would never abandon them. He said that he would be with them and the Church until the end of the world. He gave them the power to bind and loose, as well, and he gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom.
Protestants deny these things because the reveal the flaws in the reasoning of the Reformers.
I once believed as you do, but I have studied history and scripture and now see the Truth.
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Limited.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
What do you think, was Peter sent to give you eternal life? But you don't understand do you?
Peter is not God. You are changing the subject.
Did Jesus have the authority to grant authority to the apostles?
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You are repeating yourself again. I guess you have reached a dead end.
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name. Jesus promised the apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth and that he would never abandon them. He said that he would be with them and the Church until the end of the world. He gave them the power to bind and loose, as well, and he gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom.
Protestants deny these things because the reveal the flaws in the reasoning of the Reformers.
I once believed as you do, but I have studied history and scripture and now see the Truth.
You have no clue what I believe.
(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/messenger-inquirer.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/d6/5d69b029-e4fd-5a04-8fd9-72acbf925a42/506684a69b308.preview-300.jpg)(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/images/pope4.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7_e6Szp323c/Tpr1S0CMUCI/AAAAAAAABWs/fp-P0bA5Da8/s400/SrLucia.jpg)
But I can see what you believe.
You go to your pedophile and ask for forgiveness for your sins.
There are no flaws in the Gospel. You have left the gospel and gone to man-made tradition.
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Peter is not God. You are changing the subject.
Did Jesus have the authority to grant authority to the apostles?
Right, Peter is not God. And I gave you the answer to your question, apparently you don't want to hear it.
2 timothy 3:16
2 timothy 4:2-4
There is a reason the Catholic Church does not want to study the Bible and only gives you little bits and pieces of it. You make assumptions that aren't there and you tell us it's tradition.
The Woman and the Scarlet Beast
1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me: "Come, I will show you the judgment of the notorious prostitute who sits on many waters. 2 The kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and those who live on the earth became drunk on the wine of her sexual immorality." 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit to a desert. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names, having seven heads and 10 horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, precious stones, and pearls. She had a gold cup in her hand filled with everything vile and with the impurities of her prostitution. 5 On her forehead a cryptic name was written: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH 6 Then I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her, I was utterly astounded.
The Meaning of the Woman and of the Beast
7 Then the angel said to me, "Why are you astounded? I will tell you the secret meaning of the woman and of the beast, with the seven heads and the 10 horns, that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astounded when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present [again]. 9 "Here is the mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. 10 They are also seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast that was and is not, is himself the eighth, yet is of the seven and goes to destruction. 12 The 10 horns you saw are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they will receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings. Those with Him are called and elect and faithful." 15 He also said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages. 16 The 10 horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His plan by having one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast until God's words are accomplished. 18 And the woman you saw is the great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth."
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Right, Peter is not God. And I gave you the answer to your question, apparently you don't want to hear it.
2 timothy 3:16
2 timothy 4:2-4
There is a reason the Catholic Church does not want to study the Bible and only gives you little bits and pieces of it. You make assumptions that aren't there and you tell us it's tradition.
[
Another false assumption. As St. Jerome, the great Catholic theologian said, "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ"
Catholics read three bible readings at every mass. The Catholic mass is immersed in scripture. You have been misinformed.
I once believed as you do beacuse I was ignorant. You don't have to remain ignorant.
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Another false assumption. As St. Jerome, the great Catholic theologian said, "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ"
Catholics read three bible readings at every mass. The Catholic mass is immersed in scripture. You have been misinformed.
I once believed as you do beacuse I was ignorant. You don't have to remain ignorant.
What a great opportunity you are missing for a personal relationship with Christ. Don't you think that Christ coming down to lay his life down for your sins means that He loves you enough that he wants to be your personal savior?
Do you think that Christ too busy to deal directly with you? After all doesn't He know every hair on your head, every thought in your mind? He took the time to make you every cell in your body, He has enough time to know when a sparrow falls from the sky, what makes you think he doesn't have the time for you?
He said to you ask and you shall receive, but you refuse to go to him directly, are you're so ashamed of your relationship that you have to go to third parties to communicate with your Creator?
Breakaway from your cult, you only have one Holy Father, and He want you close not far away talking to someone who does not love you anywhere near what He does.
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What a great opportunity you are missing for a personal relationship with Christ. Don't you think that Christ coming down to lay his life down for your sins means that He loves you enough that he wants to be your personal savior?
Do you think that Christ too busy to deal directly with you? After all doesn't He know every hair on your head, every thought in your mind? He took the time to make you every cell in your body, He has enough time to know when a sparrow falls from the sky, what makes you think he doesn't have the time for you?
He said to you ask and you shall receive, but you refuse to go to him directly, are you're so ashamed of your relationship that you have to go to third parties to communicate with your Creator?
Breakaway from your cult, you only have one Holy Father, and He want you close not far away talking to someone who does not love you anywhere near what He does.
Your ignorance of Catholicism is impressive. Unfortunately, it is not rare.
What makes you think that I don't have a relationship with Christ?
I love Jesus and his Church.
From the Prologue to the Catholic Catechism:
"FATHER, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - than the name of JESUS.
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Your ignorance of Catholicism is impressive. Unfortunately, it is not rare.
What makes you think that I don't have a relationship with Christ?
I love Jesus and his Church.
From the Prologue to the Catholic Catechism:
"FATHER, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - than the name of JESUS.
Is that the Father (God) or the father (holy father pope)? Strange the bible refers to God as Father but you call the pope Holy Father.
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
I know it's tradition so it's OK.
I'll be praying you see the truth and it would help if you would try praying directly to the Father through Christ. I don't think that is against the Catholic rules is it? Take care.
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Is that the Father (God) or the father (holy father pope)? Strange the bible refers to God as Father but you call the pope Holy Father.
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
I know it's tradition so it's OK.
I'll be praying you see the truth and it would help if you would try praying directly to the Father through Christ. I don't think that is against the Catholic rules is it? Take care.
What do you call your father? How about your teacher?
Context is important.
What did Paul mean here?
1 Cor 4:15
Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
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What do you call your father? How about your teacher?
Context is important.
What did Paul mean here?
1 Cor 4:15
Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
I'm sorry but we are talk the use of the term holy father. the holyfather.
What part of this do you not believe to be a comand from Christ?
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Who is the Catholics Holy Father?
I thought you said you were close to Christ.
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I'm sorry but we are talk the use of the term holy father. the holyfather.
What part of this do you not believe to be a comand from Christ?
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Who is the Catholics Holy Father?
I thought you said you were close to Christ.
You didn't answer my question. What do you call your Father? Also, Jesus said call no man teacher. What did you call your teachers?
The point Jesus was making is that we should not give to man respect that is due to God.
Why did Paul tell the Corinthians that he had become their spiritual father?
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You didn't answer my question. What do you call your Father? Also, Jesus said call no man teacher. What did you call your teachers?
The point Jesus was making is that we should not give to man respect that is due to God.
Why did Paul tell the Corinthians that he had become their spiritual father?
What part of this do you not believe to be a comand from Christ?
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Who is the Catholics Holy Father?
I thought you said you were close to Christ.
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What part of this do you not believe to be a comand from Christ?
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Who is the Catholics Holy Father?
I thought you said you were close to Christ.
Why did Paul tell the Corinthians that he had become their spiritual father?
What do you call your Father? Also, Jesus said call no man teacher. What did you call your teachers?
The point Jesus was making is that we should not give to man respect that is due to God.
The Pope is a servant of servants whose time is not his own. He works for the body of Christ. He gives glory to God with his words and actions.
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Why did Paul tell the Corinthians that he had become their spiritual father?
What do you call your Father? Also, Jesus said call no man teacher. What did you call your teachers?
The point Jesus was making is that we should not give to man respect that is due to God.
The Pope is a servant of servants whose time is not his own. He works for the body of Christ. He gives glory to God with his words and actions.
What part of this do you not believe to be a comand from Christ?
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Who is the Catholics Holy Father?
I thought you said you were close to Christ.
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I call my Dad, Dad not Holy Dad.
This thread is not worthy to continue.