Does God exist?

[macuser]

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There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God

How many Christian are martyred each year?

Now that I'm unconverted I have to go out and mow the lawn. May the religion of social justice treat you all well over the weekend.

Mac


will to well

[obi_donkenobi]

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Obi
You’ve have shown that you’re unwilling or unable understand  our beliefs. True Christianity is based on love, the first is love for Christ and secondly your neighbors. We can prove that with Scripture but you refuse to accept it. You will not even except definitions of what Christianity is, trying to define words that make it fit your personal BELIEFS.

You may be a good human being and full of good intentions, but serviing man and refusing server God gets you into Hell. Now if you don’t believe in Hell you should have no problem with that.

You guys wrap up this thread because I’m going lock it down after you close up your thoughts.

I thank you Obi enjoy you life of logic or attempt there of.

Dude

>>Admin: Thanks for letting me have a final word, though disappointed you feel the need to cut the discussion off. We were definitely not done, here. And isn't this a violation of 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV),

"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..."

I can quote scripture, too, and though it doesn't mean anything to me, shouldn't it be followed by you? I don't see anything in there that gives a time limit or an "I give up" clause. I have asked many, many questions here, the answers generating even more questions. Isn't this supposed to be an apologetics-themed discussion group? You even sub-titled it, "Can you defend your beliefs?" Apparently not.

Cutting this thread off, sweeping me away with "...you're unwilling or unable to understand our beliefs" with a few vague mis-representations of problems when my questions became uncomfortable seems to me cowardly. I understand your beliefs all too well, just as hundreds of other priests and reverends who've honestly and intently studied scripture came to realize it wasn't real. There's a website to help them out of their ministries and lead them into productive lives with job/skills training and a community of general support called The Clergy Project http://clergyproject.org/. (To become a member, you have to provide evidence that they're for real and sincerely wish to leave their ministry.)

Did you (Admin) get complaints from viewers of this thread? If so, did they wish to remain anonymous? Will this thread be erased from the website, so no one else can read and ponder my challenges? Will I be banned from the site, even though I have followed your rules? If any of these are true, what does this say about the bravery of Christians and the strength of their faith that they can't withstand the questions of a single atheist? Even though you're cutting this thread off, I'd still like to hear your reply, if you're willing.

Otherwise, unless I am banned from the site, I hope to see you all in the other threads, here, with lots more questions and information about Christianity, history, scientific facts, logic, reason, secular morality and humanism.

[obi_donkenobi]

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It is obvious that you have not read the book and you refuse to accept any reference to it. So you've closed off that discussion on your own.

>>Fat: I'm sorry, but it seems even more obvious to me that you are unable to answer my questions because to do so would cause you and our readers a crisis of faith. If you wish to keep your faith, then I recommend you continue to avoid my questions and remain blissfully happy. I wouldn't blame you if you did, for I understand the warmth and comfort of faith, even if it is misplaced. Personally, I will do what it takes to believe as many true things and few false things as possible, even if it means I have to give up my dearest most favorite beliefs. This is the creed of an honest person who understand that false beliefs can lead to wrong actions.

Your scientific evidence falls apart with your answer, I don't know.

How does scientific evidence "fall apart" when the answer to a question is unknown? Doesn't the lack of an answer spur us curious and exploratory humans to look even harder for the answer? Should we have just kept saying, "Lightning is caused by Thor," instead of finding out about electrons and protons?

Of course again you try to misrepresent what is being said, I do not care who or how people think about me or my religion. I did not say that I am not concerned about other people's feelings.

If I misinterpreted you, I apologize.

No comment about the problem of 30,000 denominations? No comment on why you can't quote a book and have that count as evidence? No comment on the harm of supernatural thinking? No comment about the problems caused by the divisiveness of religion? Are you avoiding these questions? I hate to have to ask it, but are you being lazy, or just evasive?

Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler in my lifetime.  And at the present time we have a thing called abortion.

Won't get into the Hitler/Pol Pot/Stalin thing, here. I'd love to, but sadly, Admin is cutting us off. Suffice it to say, those "strong man" dictatorships were political religions, where the free exchange of ideas were brutally suppressed and those with alternate opinions were carted off and killed. If you think Christians didn't do that before secular society reined them in, you don't know your history.

Since this will be my last post on this thread I would like to address your question about the old Chinese lady. We teach and the Bible teaches that if you are without sin you will not go to hell. If your Chinese lady has never sinned against God then she has no fear of hell. And yourself, aren't you trying to suggest, in your own mind, you are that Chinese lady? Since you don't believe in God you can never sin against Him, if you are wrong you are in deep do do.  And for a man/woman whose answer to their existence is I don't know your life must be very scary.

Now that's one bit of scripture I would like to see (if you are without sin you will not go to hell). Here's what I heard:

Thessalonians 1:8–9 says that in the end God “will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Do you have a scriptural reference that conflicts with this?

Also, about that "deep do-do" comment: have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Briefly, French philosopher Blaise Pascal came up with the argument that if you don't believe in God, pretend to, and you'll win no matter what. If you're right, you go to Heaven. If you're wrong, you simply end, like the atheists posit as the likely truth. Of course, it neglects God's all-knowing ability to see through the deception, but less sophisticated believers might still try it.

Obi I wish you all the best in this life, and hopefully you will prepare your soul for what comes after.

Thanks, Fat, and I mean that. I hope you and your loved ones live in peace and plenty, and that you all continue to benefit from the reason, logic and science that has given us so much of safety and comfort in our nation and in the world.

[obi_donkenobi]

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Well Obi the only thing to tell you is you know not what you speak. Christ taught of love and the first was love to God and the second was love to man.
You need both to be a Christian. If you love man without putting God first you fall short of any chance of salvation.

>>JB Horn: I again have to disagree. I do know of what I speak, and I find it a tad disrespectful that you should suggest that I don't, as though you had the right or authority to decree such.

The Scripture say love your neighbor as yourself, it also teaches love God above yourself. I'm sorry that you can't get your head around that.

Matthew 22:36-40
36. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37. And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38. "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40. "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

I have a problem with that bit of scripture you quoted, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The actual biblical passage, Mat 22:36-40 "Love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself," is quite immoral, because it's an impossible edict that sets a person up for immediate failure. It's a device to ensnare the believer it into a lifetime of servitude to an almost certainly imaginary being who is represented by other humans. No one can truly love a neighbor 100% as much as themselves, 24/7. So, in failing to keep this edict, the person automatically becomes a failed "sinner," who now needs "redemption." Isn't this a fake problem with an equally fake cure, meant to ensnare people?

On the other hand Islam teaches to kill Christians and Jews, and they kill thousands of them every year, but no condemnation from Obi.  You are not here to un-convert to me, you are here to justify the love you have for yourself. In any case you have done neither and I predict that that feeling you have in your gut of loneliness and confusion is going to follow you until you find the truth.

Yes, the Koran does encourage violence against "infadels," but just because the Bible has no explicit commands to kill (well, except for Ex 22:18 KJV, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,") (or, 1 Sam 15:3 KJV, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." What was up with that, by the way? Why the animals, too? Not to mention killing everything and everyone (humans, land and sea animals, and plants) except a 600 year old man (??) and his immediate family.

And besides all that, it doesn't mean Christians didn't restrain themselves from Crusading around from time to time throughout history, right?

Well, no one asked for my specific opinion about the killing of Christians and Jews. I'm against it, in case you were wondering.

I never expected to de-convert anyone right off the bat, and even stated so in my very first post which began this thread. And again, you really have no right or authority to tell me how I feel (lonliness/confusion), and would like to politely ask you to stop doing that. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I did the same thing to you.

My prayers and best wishes for you and your loved ones. JB

Otherwise, thanks for the well-wishes. Right back atcha, my friend. We may disagree, but ultimately, we are fellow travelers on this incredibly tiny blue marble in the great scheme of things, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[admin]

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First to answer the PM's.
 Remember the Great Commission
And
Luke 21:12-17

To Obi
 I'll answer for the others, on Mat 22:36-40 get your self a new translation in modern english, try the NAS. On if you are without sin you will not go to hell very true and there is only one without sin, all others Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

As to your comments to me.

Matt 10:14-15
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

Admin Dude