Author Topic: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?  (Read 9126 times)

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Bob

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How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?

By Koal

I like to discuss atheism's claim that they can set morality for our society. When atheist or ask to define morality and how actions are declared moral or immoral, they respond with one of two different definitions. One is called Deontology, this is where the responsibility for determining what is moral and immoral is put upon the ruling government of the society.

The other is called Consequentialism, this is where the consequences of your actions are judged to be moral or immoral by how it effects others. In other words if something causes harm to another person it is immoral.

There are obvious problems with both these guidelines for determining morality. There are really no standards here that set the benchmark for what is moral and immoral. In the first case we've seen throughout history immoral governments that put millions of their own citizens to death or into slavery.

In the second case the definition of what harms another can be very complicated. We know that taking something from a person, stealing, is an immoral act under most definitions, because it harms the victim. However the government is allowed to take from a person and this is not considered theft, or apparently any harm to that victim. We also know the government that enslaves its male citizens for the purpose of making war, the draft, is not considered causing these persons harm and therefore their action is moral. It is been shown in other threads debating with atheist that they will concede that animals do cause harm to each other and in some cases these atheists would say that nature can be immoral.

Many atheists will try to combined these two definitions only finding themselves in a quagmire of contradiction. Is the government imprisonment of a person who is caught driving under the influence of alcohol, but cause no harm to any human being, a moral action by the government? So the question arises can an act be immoral even if that act cause no harm to another human being? Even the question of can a government or a society be immoral in the eyes of an atheists? If so who makes that determination

In reality atheists have no guidelines to any moral standards other than those written on their hearts by their Creator.


http://baptistforum.net/story.php?title=how-does-an-atheist-determine-what-is-evil-and-what-is-not-evil

Moss

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 07:50:56 pm »
I don't even understand why they would want to claim moral standing.

Henry

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 08:47:13 pm »
"Cause no harm to people or property" which is not unlike Love God and love your neighbor as yourself
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, Rom 2.14

Bob

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 11:45:48 pm »
The feeling of Guilt becomes their law, and it is needed to allow the work of the Spirit.

The purpose of being guilty is to bring us to Jesus. Once we are there, then its purpose is finished.
Corrie ten Boom (1892–1983)

Job 33:14-30
John 6:44-45 
John 16:7-8

Moss

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2014, 12:10:03 am »
Koal doesn't discuss moral absolutes, do they (can they) exist under Consequentialism or Deontology.

Box-o-Tribbles

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2014, 05:27:37 am »
What an novel approach to youtube commenting- posting a link to a thread on a forum somewhere else. Let's give it a spin though eh?

I've never heard of an atheist, or even a group of atheists, saying that they and they alone have the ability or right to decide what is moral action for entire societies. Rather, what comes up frequently is the call by atheists that morality should be decided secularly and rationally. "Coveting thy neighbor's wife" isn't considered an immoral action because the bible says so, but because its effects (unwanted attention, fixation, paranoia, jealousy) are considered by most people to be negative. The secular approach to morality is that actions should be judged on how they affect human health and happiness. Murder, theft, violence and rape, are all very negative things for the victim, and so any population that desires maximum health and happiness will take steps to guard against them by defining such actions as immoral.  The thing that makes us think this way is not god, it is empathy, or the ability to predict and internalize the emotions of other people.

Moral authority doesn't intrinsically come from government.  The function of government is to add stability to society, be it caring for the less fortunate, organizing for military defense, distributing resources, or upholding laws. People give powers to their governments for specific purposes through laws, in this case, so that acts deemed immoral by the citizens can be investigated and if necessary punished from an impartial distance. A majority of people do not want to be murdered, and believe that murder is immoral, so governments are empowered with the authority to investigate murders and punish people who are found guilty. The role of government in morality is to enforce it, not define it. The alternative to empowering a government through law is mob justice, which will frequently arrive at incorrect or excessive punishments due to the emotional investment of those involved.

Some personal freedoms must be surrendered to be accepted into, and be supported by, a government. Drafting doesn't exist purely to inconvenience people, it exists because it is recognized that having a capable and ready military is one of the best ways to discourage destruction and social upset from people that seek power through violence. We also agree that taxes are fair and reasonable, and pay taxes to our governments so that we can benefit from actions it takes on our behalf like maintaining educational and health programs. Money is nice to have as an individual, but we recognize the fact that we are happier and healthier when some sacrifices are made for the group as a whole.

As far as the examples provided of "difficult" moral questions
....in drunk driving, the issue is one of risk. Drunk driving is easily demonstrable to be a dangerous activity with VERY high likelihood of damage to people and property. Just because no damage has resulted in a specific case doesn't matter when the danger has been proven in many prior occasions. Morality can include acting preemptively in situations where no actual harm has yet been done due to our ability to learn and predict consequences. Teaching children about the danger of firearms and locking firearms away from them, even though it deprives them of the freedom to accidentally shoot themselves or other people, would be considered by most to be a morally correct action because it is far the less harmful of two potential outcomes.  (That said, if you have assessed the risks and make a deliberate decision to commit suicide with a car and a case of beer, the moral complications completely disappear if you do it where you can't cause damage to other people and their property).

... societies and governments can be objectively immoral but only so far as they harm health and happiness of their individuals. One society's fondness for the taste of cat meat, and its subsequent legality at the state level, doesn't make them immoral no matter how much their neighbors might blanch at the idea. On the other hand, North Korea is a rare example of an objectively immoral government. One that brainwashes its people, prevents free access to information, even prevents people from leaving, to the point that it is now a nation consisting mostly of poorly educated malnourished paupers. Everything that can be done to diminish health and happiness, short of just executing everybody, is being done there.

Secular morality is built on the empathy to recognize happiness and suffering in other people and the predictive ability to know when to act to prevent or reduce suffering by choosing to the best of our knowledge the least harmful option available.  No omniscient, omnipotent entity living outside of spacetime and causality and communicating to our "heart" (I think you meant brain) via untraceable telepathy is required.

Bob

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 09:55:39 am »
Hello and welcome BOT



I've never heard of an atheist, or even a group of atheists, saying that they and they alone have the ability or right to decide what is moral action for entire societies.  Rather, what comes up frequently is the call by atheists that morality should be decided secularly and rationally. "Coveting thy neighbor's wife" isn't considered an immoral action because the bible says so, but because its effects (unwanted attention, fixation, paranoia, jealousy) are considered by most people to be negative. The secular approach to morality is that actions should be judged on how they affect human health and happiness. Murder, theft, violence and rape, are all very negative things for the victim, and so any population that desires maximum health and happiness will take steps to guard against them by defining such actions as immoral.  The thing that makes us think this way is not god, it is empathy, or the ability to predict and internalize the emotions of other people.

So you're talking Consequentialism here.

Quote
Moral authority doesn't intrinsically come from government.  The function of government is to add stability to society, be it caring for the less fortunate, organizing for military defense, distributing resources, or upholding laws. People give powers to their governments for specific purposes through laws, in this case, so that acts deemed immoral by the citizens can be investigated and if necessary punished from an impartial distance. A majority of people do not want to be murdered, and believe that murder is immoral, so governments are empowered with the authority to investigate murders and punish people who are found guilty. The role of government in morality is to enforce it, not define it. The alternative to empowering a government through law is mob justice, which will frequently arrive at incorrect or excessive punishments due to the emotional investment of those involved.

Now we move into Deontology and this is where the two get convoluted. Your first line, "I've never heard of an atheist, or even a group of atheists, saying that they and they alone have the ability or right to decide what is moral action for entire societies," you're saying here that an atheists believe that there can be deferent standards for deferent sections of society? For instance is it moral for a child in a public school to tell her friends that there is no god and man came from monkeys but immoral for a child in the same school to tell his friends that the world was created by supreme being?
 

Quote
Some personal freedoms must be surrendered to be accepted into, and be supported by, a government. Drafting doesn't exist purely to inconvenience people, it exists because it is recognized that having a capable and ready military is one of the best ways to discourage destruction and social upset from people that seek power through violence. We also agree that taxes are fair and reasonable, and pay taxes to our governments so that we can benefit from actions it takes on our behalf like maintaining educational and health programs. Money is nice to have as an individual, but we recognize the fact that we are happier and healthier when some sacrifices are made for the group as a whole.

So the government, (and like all governments I'm sure it came into power peacefully) has the right to force you to accept their veiw of what you call happier and healthier. Hitler believed that sacrifices should be made for the group as a whole.
If society as a whole is happier watching people being fed to lions then some must be sacrificed?
Would it not be healthier if only the most fit be allowed to reproduce as is done in many animal societies?


Quote
As far as the examples provided of "difficult" moral questions
....in drunk driving, the issue is one of risk. Drunk driving is easily demonstrable to be a dangerous activity with VERY high likelihood of damage to people and property. Just because no damage has resulted in a specific case doesn't matter when the danger has been proven in many prior occasions. Morality can include acting preemptively in situations where no actual harm has yet been done due to our ability to learn and predict consequences. Teaching children about the danger of firearms and locking firearms away from them, even though it deprives them of the freedom to accidentally shoot themselves or other people, would be considered by most to be a morally correct action because it is far the less harmful of two potential outcomes.  (That said, if you have assessed the risks and make a deliberate decision to commit suicide with a car and a case of beer, the moral complications completely disappear if you do it where you can't cause damage to other people and their property).


There is a third potential outcome put the guy in a cab and send him home. But you want punishment for risky behavior, not on the actual consequence. Interesting.

Having sex with a large multitude of partners can be a health risk, is this immoral in the eyes of an atheist because of the risk?

Quote
... societies and governments can be objectively immoral but only so far as they harm health and happiness of their individuals. One society's fondness for the taste of cat meat, and its subsequent legality at the state level, doesn't make them immoral no matter how much their neighbors might blanch at the idea. On the other hand, North Korea is a rare example of an objectively immoral government. One that brainwashes its people, prevents free access to information, even prevents people from leaving, to the point that it is now a nation consisting mostly of poorly educated malnourished paupers. Everything that can be done to diminish health and happiness, short of just executing everybody, is being done there.

Free access to information! Like not allowing a copy of the bible to be in the public school library or for that matter on the school property? Not allowing creation to be discussed in public schools?


Quote
Secular morality is built on the empathy to recognize happiness and suffering in other people and the predictive ability to know when to act to prevent or reduce suffering by choosing to the best of our knowledge the least harmful option available.  No omniscient, omnipotent entity living outside of spacetime and causality and communicating to our "heart" (I think you meant brain) via untraceable telepathy is required.

He did not mean brain.

Organizations that believe they alone have the ability or right to decide what is moral action for entire societies.

American Atheists
Atheist Alliance International
Freedom From Religion Foundation
American Humanist Association
The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
Brights

Readers may want to look into the purpose the above organizations and the actions they use to make you happier and healthier.

Fat

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2014, 10:12:36 am »
Hi BOT

Your take on the military draft is really no different than the founding fathers on slavery. At the time they consider slavery necessary for the survival of their society.The whole society of the South relied on slave labor.

Hal

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2014, 10:37:11 am »
Majority rules.
I think what is being said here is that the majority is always moral except when it's not.

Bob

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2014, 11:05:38 am »
Majority rules.
I think what is being said here is that the majority is always moral except when it's not.
Well that brings up a good question, are there moral absolutes?

JB Horn

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2014, 01:58:22 pm »
Hello Box-o-Tribbles

Thank you for posting your views, I really do appreciate it.
I am making the assumption that you are an atheist, I apologize if I am incorrect.

I have never heard an atheist or group of atheists claim that they had the sole ability or right to decide what is moral and immoral. However I've seen by their actions that is exactly what they believe. You seem to rely on the government to give direction on what defines morality. Yet atheist organizations go around the will of the people and use courts to subvert the public that put that government in power. Even in cases, like in California, where the people have a direct vote on the morality question atheists have been able to subvert that vote and suppress the will of the majority.

We can lay down all kinds of situations and ask how we would arrive at a moral solution, but I have one that I like to put to you and give you my answer that comes directly from that old ancient text which you discard.

You have two men stranded in the boat in the middle of the ocean, one man is physically fit in a custom prolonged physical exertion. The other man is a 90 pound weakling who is sick and unable to row the boat.

Now we had the dilemma, there is a shortage of water that if it was rationed one person could survive no more than six days on that supply. The fit man knows that he is 5 to 6 days from the nearest island. He understands that if he is to divide the water that is very likely neither one of them would survive. He also understands that if he was to give all the water to the sick man neither one of them would likely survive. The fit man has the ability to make the decision because of his strength over the weaker sick man.

So the question is what is the moral thing for the stronger fit man to do, share the water, give the water to the sick man, or use the water for himself.

I don't expect you to answer this question only think about it. I will give you the answer that the Bible says.

Let's assume that one of the parties in the boat is an atheist and the other party is a Christian.
If the Christian is the fit man he would give all the water to the sick man. If the Christian was a sick man he would give all a water to fit man.

John 15:13 No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.

Of course the problem with this scenario is a true Christian doesn't fear death.

JB

Fat

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2014, 05:43:47 pm »
JB
You should've made your little scenario there about a Republican and a Democrat.👀

Box-o-Tribbles

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2014, 11:40:25 pm »
Now we had the dilemma, there is a shortage of water that if it was rationed one person could survive no more than six days on that supply.

Here's my return question that I don't expect you to answer:

If humanity itself was created by a god that loved us and Earth created solely for our benefit, why would he make us water-drinking creatures (quite inefficient ones at that) on a planet where over 99% of all water is useless for us to drink? That is a real number, not hyperbole.  If you were an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, would it be moral to design your creations with deadly weaknesses and put them in situations where you KNOW that they will suffer for it?

macuser

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 12:03:31 am »
Here's my return question that I don't expect you to answer:

If humanity itself was created by a god that loved us and Earth created solely for our benefit, why would he make us water-drinking creatures (quite inefficient ones at that) on a planet where over 99% of all water is useless for us to drink? That is a real number, not hyperbole.  If you were an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, would it be moral to design your creations with deadly weaknesses and put them in situations where you KNOW that they will suffer for it?

I'm not JB but sense I'm logon I'll tell you up front that you have based your question on a faulty assumption. Man was created to worship God, to be part of God's universal kingdom. The Creator does not serve the created.
Man will suffer for his disobedience to his Creator. It's all in the first 3 chapters of the Bible, takes about 20 mins to read it.
You have heard of the Garden of Eden and that God kicked man out of it, right?

Mac

Box-o-Tribbles

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Re: How does an atheist determine what is evil and what is not evil?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2014, 01:27:13 am »
you have based your question on a faulty assumption. Man was created to worship God, to be part of God's universal kingdom.

I don't see how the question is faulty. I didn't say anything about why your god would have created humanity. I only challenged the morality of creating anything that CAN suffer, knowing it WILL suffer, if you had the power to literally rewrite reality to prevent it.

Also: What you describe is called megalomania. It's generally considered to be a very negative trait. And it doesn't seem to make much sense to make new life to worship you but limit their perception of reality to the degree that they can't actually find you. Unless you suggest that he's only hiding now, after the garden, because of that original sin proposition? Which means he made new life knowing it would disobey, knowing that he would become immaterial and unprovable after that point, and knowing that as a result 2/3 of the entire population of the world wouldn't even believe he exists.  If making worshipers was the plan, the plan failed pretty spectacularly.