Bible Talk > Apologetics

Works

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biblebuf:
Works

1-corinthians 3:11 because no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid-that is, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.


Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment ; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Some questions for you people who are involved in a work based religion. If you had never sinned in your entire life would you be required to do good works for salvation? Now I know everyone has sinned except for our Lord Christ. But that is not the purpose of this question, the purpose is philosophical in that if you had never send you would be living your life the way God wants you to. If that is the case would you not already be doing good works for your fellow man? In other words if you were a righteous person all your life and not needed to be forgiven for your sins you would still be doing the works that you are doing now and not expecting to receive salvation from them.

What I am saying here is that your good works are nothing more than living the way God wanted you to do in the first place. If this is true how can your good works in any way wipe away your previous sins?

Attacking this from a different view, I would ask you who are you doing his good works for? The answer I get from many of the denominations that believe salvation by works is very puzzling to me. The reason I am puzzled by the answers is that it is obvious to me that if you are doing good works to earn your way to heaven then these good works are centered around your benefit. This means to me that you are not working for the benefit of your Lord of the benefit of your own salvation.

On the other hand I look at the people who say they do good works because they have been saved and not because they want to be saved. These people are telling me that after receiving salvation by faith they have turned to the righteousness that God had intended them to live in before their sin. They tell me that their good works are in response to the love and grace given to them by their Lord. They do these good works in returning their love that they feel for their Savior, and not as a payment or an obligation for future salvation.

So I wonder now how Christ looks at those doing good works. Does He classify all works the same, or will he test these works by fire as he tells us in the Scriptures.

BB

JB Horn:
Of course if you have never sinned you would not need the blood of the Lamb in the first place.

I have had this conversation with JW's and others trying to convince them that their actions should be out of love and not as payment, to no avail. May be it is because of their refusal to accept the deity of Christ.

biblebuf:
I believe we have all had that discussion with the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I have never been able to exactly understand how they can be doing something that they believed benefits them and at the same time saying they are doing it for the glory of God. I want you to understand I know that there is reward in heaven for Christians who do good works. There will be crowns of glory for those that have spent their lives helping other people in the name of Christ. But I find it hard to believe that the people that will obtain these crowns will be those who worked specifically to gain this glory for themselves. If you are working with the idea that you are going to be paid for your work in the afterlife, rather it be by salvation or recognition for your good deeds, then you really were not doing these things in the name of Christ, you are doing these things in your own name.

Dandi:
The true God has seen fit to make known to people the outcome of the choices they decide to make.  For example, God told Adam that if he ate from one tree he would die, if he did not eat from it he would not die.  God told the nation of Israel, if they strictly obeyed his commands then they would remain his people with whom he had a convenant, if they did not then they would lose that special privilege.  God sent his son to the earth and his son told us as it is recorded in the scriptures at John 17:3 that in order to have everlasting life we need to take in knowledge of Jesus and His father.  If we don't take in knowledge of them and act on that knowledge, then we won't have everlasting life.

Having taken in knowledge of God and Jesus properly, one of the things a person finds is a commandment at Matt 28:19,20, which outlines a work for christians, true followers of Jesus, to be engaged in.  And Matt 24:14 shows that this work would continue for a witness to all the nations and then the end would come.

So, we know that Jesus wants us to be involved in a preaching and teaching work because that is what he commanded his followers while on earth.  We also know that if we decide to act on this knowledge we have of this command given, we can have everlasting life.  What should be our ultimate motivation for doing this work that was commanded?  Can we actually "earn" the reward of everlasting life through our works?  To briefly paraphrase the 1980 Watchtower dated May 1st, an article entitled "Why Do What Is Right?" published by Jehovah's Witnesses, it mentioned that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that people do NOT "earn" salvation by doing works.  Everlasting life is a "gift" as Romans 6:23 says.  Nor do JWs believe that good works somehow wipe away sins.  They do believe, however, that faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice and an obedient inclination along with the mercy expressed by Jesus and his Father is what leads to forgiveness of sins.  In effort to be obedient, and out of love for them and appreciation for what they have done for us, we should strive to do the work Jesus commanded at Matt 28:19,20.  The hope of everlasting life in paradise is obviously a welcomed, much anticipated hope for us to look forward to.  It was a hope, no doubt made known to us, not to be the ultimate reason for obedience, but to be an added strenthening agent and incentive. 

In effort to demonstrate our faith, we should do the works commanded.  James 2:14 says, "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works?  That faith cannot save him, can it?"  Verses- 24-26 continues to show that it is necessary to have works to demonstrate our faith. 

Certainly, there is the chance that certain ones could be performing works simply seeking the reward they are expecting, feeling entitled to the reward, as if they had earned it, or doing the works seeking glory for themselves.  Yet, there are also many others who are looking forward to the reward, although the reward is not the main reason they do their works.  They recognize that they should be obedient to the Most High God and his son, and they know that their obedience will in turn bring glory to the Most High God.  Like Jesus, they do works out of love for their heavenly father, they have a desire to do what is right to please him, they have a desire to help people to benefit themselves. 

God has given us the info we need to make the decisions that will benefit ourselves.  He has told us the good and the bad consequences.  As far as what our individual motivations are, he knows them.  We as humans cannot see someone doing a work and read his heart in order to definitely say, "He is dong this work for the wrong reason, therefore, that work is invalid."  Who can accurately read hearts and minds besides the true God and Jesus?  Only they are really in the best position to judge motivations.

Therefore, it doesn't seem advantageous for one to conclude that we should not do christian works, simply because we are aware of the reward that God has made available to us as a gift, and people might be doing the works only to receive a reward and glory for themselves.  We need to do the works Jesus commanded, the bible makes that clear.  Faith without works is dead.  And we should leave it to those qualified to judge what motivations are proper and which are not.

***It was asked, if a person was not a sinner would they still need to do works?  Well when Adam and Eve were created, they were created perfect and were without sin.  They were given a work to do:  "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth...have in subjection...every living creature (Gen 1:28)...Gen 2:15, "And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and tot ake care of it."  So, they had work to do, yet it was not a work to be done in order to redeem themselves in some way.  They were to be obedient because the Creator, their superior and father, gave them work to do.  And out of love for their father and out of appreciation for all they were given they would have been happy to comply with the work.  Jesus as well, when he came to the earth, was given a work to do and he did it even though he was without sin (John 17:4).

JB Horn:
Hi Dandi,

A couple points here on your post, a very good post by the way. First Adam and Israel lived under the Law, there is no salvation there.You say it is necessary to have works to demonstrate your faith my question is to demonstrate your faith to who? Another question is when you speak of faith I like to know where you acquired that faith or how you came about have it. I want you to know now I'm not questioning that you do have faith, I am not making that kind of judgment, on the contrary it appears that you are a person of faith. The other thing is I don't see that BB or myself were in any way suggesting that Christians should not do works, I don't see that in either one of our post.



You made one good sentence here that I think nobody in the world at least any Christian at all would disagree with.


--- Quote ---Like Jesus, they do works out of love for their heavenly father, they have a desire to do what is right to please him, they have a desire to help people to benefit themselves.
--- End quote ---
I hope you are referring back to the people when you use the word themselves.

And on the other hand there is a sentence they are looking really distressing if you parcel out the sentence it appears that one has to work for his forgiveness in other words the obedience must come prior to the forgiveness.


--- Quote ---They do believe, however, that faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice and an obedient inclination along with the mercy expressed by Jesus and his Father is what leads to forgiveness of sins.
--- End quote ---


The way this since a structured it appears that the obedience to Christ and your works have to come before you receive forgiveness if this is true then everything else you said means nothing. If you have not been forgiven because you have not yet been obedient then you will not possess that love that Christ gives us on our salvation.


What works did Paul do to receive his salvation? His works all came after he receive the grace of Christ. What works did the thief on the cross do for his salvation, before or after?

Have a happy resurrection day, may God the Redeemer bless you.

JB

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