Bible Talk > Eschatology
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church
JB Horn:
--- Quote from: Iconoclast on July 14, 2018, 10:35:33 pm ---Yes...I was very clear. Yes, all will be raised on the last day.
The Kingdom is now. I did not make up scripture....I just believe it as written as you should.
--- End quote ---
You believe what is written, OK.
Matthew 3:2
Matthew 4:17
Matthew 5:3
Matthew 5:10
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 5:20
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 8:11
Matthew 10:7
Matthew 11:11
Matthew 11:12
Matthew 13:11
Matthew 13:24
Matthew 13:31
Matthew 13:33
Matthew 13:44
Matthew 13:45
Matthew 13:47
Matthew 13:52
Matthew 16:19
Matthew 18:1
Matthew 18:3
Matthew 18:4
Matthew 18:23
Matthew 19:12
Matthew 19:14
Matthew 19:23
Matthew 20:1
Matthew 22:2
Matthew 23:13
Matthew 25:1
Iconoclast:
--- Quote from: macuser on July 15, 2018, 12:14:54 am ---The Kingdom is now.
That's all I need to know. Thank you for that Iconoclast, I am going to fly to Jerusalem so I can see my Lord seated on David's throne.
--- End quote ---
You might save the plane fare and just read Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost;
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
and then this;
Acts15:Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. “And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
‘After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the ‘Lord who does all these things’ (Acts 15:14-18).
Iconoclast:
--- Quote from: JB Horn on July 15, 2018, 04:08:20 pm ---You believe what is written, OK.
Matthew 3:2
Matthew 4:17
Matthew 5:3
Matthew 5:10
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 5:20
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 8:11
Matthew 10:7
Matthew 11:11
Matthew 11:12
Matthew 13:11
Matthew 13:24
Matthew 13:31
Matthew 13:33
Matthew 13:44
Matthew 13:45
Matthew 13:47
Matthew 13:52
Matthew 16:19
Matthew 18:1
Matthew 18:3
Matthew 18:4
Matthew 18:23
Matthew 19:12
Matthew 19:14
Matthew 19:23
Matthew 20:1
Matthew 22:2
Matthew 23:13
Matthew 25:1
--- End quote ---
Yes....a very fine list of verses....I believe all of them as written.
SovereignGrace:
I tend to shy away from this subject, as it genders more heat than the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate does. But I will add my thoughts to this subject.
Here are a couple passages used to prove a pre-trib rapture...
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.[1 Thess. 4:13-18]
What I do know is this passage is it says the Christ is coming again to gather His children into the cloud to forever be with Him. What is not said is the timing of His second advent. All eschatological positions use this passage. There is no mention of the time this is to happen. We do not know if this parousia is pre, mid, or post trib. So I do not believe a pre-trib rapture can find traction in this passage.
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.[Rev. 4:1,12]
I don't know if it was Darby who started this, but the pre-trib dispensationialists use this as when John was caught up to heaven to mean this is when the church is raptured and from Revelation 4------>Revelation 19 it is the great tribulation. It says John was 'caught up', not the church. To use this to mean a pre-trib rapture, one has to go by inference only. There is nothing concrete for a pre-trib rapture in this passage, either.
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.[1 Cor. 15:51-58]
Again, here is a passage of scriptures used for a pre-trin rapture, but there is no mentioning of the timing when this take place. It doesn't say of His second advent here is pre, mid, or post-trib. Again, another passage that shows to prove a pre-trib rapture, one has to go with inferences.
The reason why I don't fight about this all believers will be where He is. They will be happy just to be with Him. So comfort each other with these words..."The Lord is coming again..."
Moss:
--- Quote from: SovereignGrace on July 18, 2018, 10:55:48 pm ---I tend to shy away from this subject, as it genders more heat than the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate does. But I will add my thoughts to this subject.
Here are a couple passages used to prove a pre-trib rapture...
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.[1 Thess. 4:13-18]
What I do know is this passage is it says the Christ is coming again to gather His children into the cloud to forever be with Him. What is not said is the timing of His second advent. All eschatological positions use this passage. There is no mention of the time this is to happen. We do not know if this parousia is pre, mid, or post trib. So I do not believe a pre-trib rapture can find traction in this passage.
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.[Rev. 4:1,12]
I don't know if it was Darby who started this, but the pre-trib dispensationialists use this as when John was caught up to heaven to mean this is when the church is raptured and from Revelation 4------>Revelation 19 it is the great tribulation. It says John was 'caught up', not the church. To use this to mean a pre-trib rapture, one has to go by inference only. There is nothing concrete for a pre-trib rapture in this passage, either.
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.[1 Cor. 15:51-58]
Again, here is a passage of scriptures used for a pre-trin rapture, but there is no mentioning of the timing when this take place. It doesn't say of His second advent here is pre, mid, or post-trib. Again, another passage that shows to prove a pre-trib rapture, one has to go with inferences.
The reason why I don't fight about this all believers will be where He is. They will be happy just to be with Him. So comfort each other with these words..."The Lord is coming again..."
--- End quote ---
We do know that it cannot be post trip because of Revelation 11. The Scripture tells us that no man knows the day or the hour (Matthew 24:36) of Christ's return (The rapture not the second coming). I believe this prophecy to be true, which means to me that anyone alive and familiar with the Scripture would be able to tell exactly when they were in the 3 1/2 year mark of the tribulation. This would mean that for 3 1/2 years they would know exactly when the rapture was to occur. This of course could not be, and will not be allowed to happen. This means the rapture has to occur before the two witnesses are killed.
This is the rapture not the second coming
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 "Now concerning that day and hour no one knows-neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son -except the Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. 39 They didn't know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be: 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore be alert, since you don't know what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. 44 This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
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