Fallen Angels vs. fallen man, a question of sovereignty.

[JB Horn]

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Couple of things I like to start off with that I hope everyone agrees with so they will not become a point of debate on this thread. First I like to point out some similarities about Angels and men, the main point is that they both were given free will to choose between following God's instructions and not following God's instructions. Another similarity is that both the fallen angels and fallen man have been sentenced to the same fiery hell for eternity.

If we can agree on those points than what I would like to discuss is the question, why is man been given a route to salvation when the fallen Angels have not? There is no salvation possible for Satan and his followers, but a clear path has been opened to fallen man to gain entry into God's kingdom.

The only explanation that can be given for the disparity in the treatment of the fallen Angels and the descendants of Adam, is that God in his own sovereign desire, chose not to give that path of forgiveness to those Angels that chose to follow Satan.

Of course you all know I'm going with this, and of course you are right it is the doctrine of election. Can you deny that God choosing to die for man not for Angels was sovereign right? If that's the case could he not also die for a group of chosen men and allow others to the fate that awaits all of the fallen Angels?

I like to hear what you have to say.

JB

[macuser]

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Christ spoke with demons  when he was here but never about salvation. There was the one time when He let the legions into the pigs, but there was no salvation for them,

[Fat]

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Hi JB

You have to look at the whole picture. As far as I can recall there is no record of the angels ever receiving the law. What they did was to put themselves above God, thieir creator.

[JB Horn]

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Hi JB

You have to look at the whole picture. As far as I can recall there is no record of the angels ever receiving the law. What they did was to put themselves above God, their creator.

Are you saying that there will be no judgement for Satan? Is there condemnation without the law? My opinion is that the angels were created knowing the law, as the gentiles who did not receive the law have it written on their hearts. And they that have fallen will face the wrath of God.

[Fat]

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Are you saying that there will be no judgement for Satan? Is there condemnation without the law? My opinion is that the angels were created knowing the law, as the gentiles who did not receive the law have it written on their hearts. And they that have fallen will face the wrath of God.

No law No faith.
Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

[michaelf]

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Just a point to add to the discussion

the Law was given to Moses in the desert

People sinned before that. think flood etc


Big difference is God Loves us (people)

Never says that about other beings

[calluna]

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Angels experience no temptation, and cannot sin, and have no need of a saviour. They see God as he really is, "face to face," as Paul puts it; but they still have a choice, just as God must have. They have the clearest possible choice of loving perfect goodness, or of hating goodness, according to their inherent nature. It is the same choice that we ultimately make, according to our nature, and according to our response to the love of God in Jesus. Those who never hear the gospel may well, at the judgment, have the same 'instant' choice to make that angels make.

[JB Horn]

• 

Angels experience no temptation, and cannot sin, and have no need of a saviour. They see God as he really is, "face to face," as Paul puts it; but they still have a choice, just as God must have. They have the clearest possible choice of loving perfect goodness, or of hating goodness, according to their inherent nature. It is the same choice that we ultimately make, according to our nature, and according to our response to the love of God in Jesus. Those who never hear the gospel may well, at the judgment, have the same 'instant' choice to make that angels make.

I disagree calluna,


 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment - ( 2 Peter 2:4 )

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,( Jude 1:6 )


"Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels." ( Revelation 12:7, 9 )

 
"For it is clear that He does not reach out to help angels, but to help Abraham’s offspring." Hebrews 2:16

JB

[calluna]

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I disagree calluna,

 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment - ( 2 Peter 2:4 )

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,( Jude 1:6 )


"Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels." ( Revelation 12:7, 9 )

 
"For it is clear that He does not reach out to help angels, but to help Abraham’s offspring." Hebrews 2:16

JB

How do these demonstrate that angels experience temptations? It is not suggested that angels are incapable of rejecting deity, and suffering the due penalty if they do so. It is very clear that some of them have chosen to reject deity; and have themselves been rejected, and ejected, of course. The point is that, being in heaven, away from the temptations of this world, they do not commit sin by giving in to those temptations. So they cannot have guilty consciences by giving in to them, so need a saviour to clear them. So Jesus did not need to die for angels. He died for his brothers, which angels cannot become.

[JB Horn]

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How do these demonstrate that angels experience temptations? It is not suggested that angels are incapable of rejecting deity, and suffering the due penalty if they do so. It is very clear that some of them have chosen to reject deity; and have themselves been rejected, and ejected, of course. The point is that, being in heaven, away from the temptations of this world, they do not commit sin by giving in to those temptations. So they cannot have guilty consciences by giving in to them, so need a saviour to clear them. So Jesus did not need to die for angels. He died for his brothers, which angels cannot become.

Angels experience no temptation, and cannot sin, and have no need of a saviour. They see God as he really is, "face to face," as Paul puts it; but they still have a choice, just as God must have. They have the clearest possible choice of loving perfect goodness, or of hating goodness, according to their inherent nature. It is the same choice that we ultimately make, according to our nature, and according to our response to the love of God in Jesus. Those who never hear the gospel may well, at the judgment, have the same 'instant' choice to make that angels make.

Humm let me try that again.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment - ( 2 Peter 2:4 )

 For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment ( 2 Peter 2:4 World English Bible)