Bible Talk > Sound doctrine
predestination
Fat:
--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 28, 2013, 07:59:57 pm ---Fat,
Are you literate?
Please post where I said something about "replacement theology".
You make up things I haven't said, while ignoring what I did say.
Jack
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Reply #49 ---Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.
Jack
--- End quote ---
Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology
I am sorry Jack but I think you are done here. Please move on, thank you.
Jack Koons:
Fat,
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.
John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of eternal life.
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".
Let me spell it out for you:
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice, "even so must the Son of man be lifted up" and why must He be lifted up? Verse 15 "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.
John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Jesus had to be lifted up to DRAW ALL MEN
It says WHOSOEVER and ALL, not all of the "elect", not whosoever of the "elect"; JUST "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL".
Stop trying to make the "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL" go away, it won't work.
Jack
Fat:
One problem in numbers 21 there is no indication that all that were bitten by the serpent look at the bronze image. It is very clear even as you stated this was a test of belief.
Numbers 21:6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard ; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard ; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
Some translations use the word and to show that not all looked at it and not all were saved.
9 Therefore Moses made a serpent of brass, and setted (it) in a perch; and (those) men (who were) hurt, and beholding it, were healed. (And so Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it up on a pole; and those who were bitten, and looked at it, were healed.)
9 And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass -- he hath lived.
9 So Moses made a bronze snake. He put it up on a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake remained alive.
For John 12 scripture I ask that you consider it in context.
John 12
30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 "Now judgment is upon this world ; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever ; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man ?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke : "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED ?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM"
Your interpretation of does not jive with the rest of the text. What is the relationship of those who believed and those that could not believe?
Calvinist believe there are two types of Calling by God.
External Call
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Internal Call
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
When you preached the gospel of repentance (Luke 24:47) to your Marines they receive External Call (if they had not already heard the gospel). That was not enough and never is. Repentance is part of receiving the call (Internal Call) and that takes a convection of their sins and can only come from the Holy Spirit.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me brings him. Then I will raise him up on the last day.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?
Jack Koons:
Fat,
Just three quick notes before I go to work on another project for a while.
1) If you actually read the entire story of the 'firey serpents' in Numbers 21, you will notice that the ONLY REASON Moses made, and lifted up the "brazen" serpent, was to address THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DYING BECAUSE THEY WERE BITTEN. if you weren't bitten, you didn't have to look. The point of the Jesus bringing up the "brazen" serpent was because He had to be lifted up in the same manner, and, it was the dying people that had to look and live. Today it is NO DIFFERENT, the DYING PEOPLE need to look and live.
2) i always find it interesting when people have to "find a version" of the Bible to meet there beliefs. Pick a Bible that you believe is correct, and stick with it. (I do, and it works great.)
3) You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.
Jack
Fat:
Jack
Is it your intent to say that everybody that was bitten by the serpent did look at the bronze statue? Other than that I am not disagreeing with that statement.
Also something that may be worth considering is that God sent to those serpents to bring the people into repentance.
I don't like shopping translations either but I'm trying to make a visual point there is nothing in this text that says all were saved. The traffic lights were installed so that when everyone stops on the red light there will be no accidents. Does that mean everyone stops for the red light?
--- Quote from: Jack ---You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.
--- End quote ---
Calvinists disagree in many areas amongst themselves, but I doubt if you can refine too much disagreement on this point. I would like to know your thoughts on the matter of Matthew 22:14 and Romans 8:30, external and internal calling.
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