Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?

[JB Horn]

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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

[biblebuf]

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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

Mark 9:38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

Matthew 7:22
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?'

[calluna]

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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.

[JB Horn]

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Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.

True the Holy Spirit was not or is not in them.

But the question:

The question has arisen, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?

Is the earthly state of those saved important when we are talking eternity?


Luke 15:7 I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don't need repentance.
Luke 15:10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”


Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord your God is among you, a warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will bring [you] quietness with His love. He will delight in you with shouts of joy."

[calluna]

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True the Holy Spirit was not or is not in them.

But the question:
Is the earthly state of those saved important when we are talking eternity?

Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

[JB Horn]

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Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

By this I presume that you don't believe that a person receives the Holy Ghost when they are saved. And that you believe that once you are save you can lose your salvation. Also you believe that justification comes after or at the time of death.

Am I wrong in my presumption?

[calluna]

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By this I presume that you don't believe that a person receives the Holy Ghost when they are saved.

Can you prove that you think like that? Or do we here witness a malicious Calvinist smear?

You've got form, Horn. As the police say.

[JB Horn]

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Can you prove that you think like that? Or do we here witness a malicious Calvinist smear?

You've got form, Horn. As the police say.

You got it from God as the police say.

Matthew 3:11 CSB
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but the One who is coming after me is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to take off His sandals. He Himself will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 14:26 CSB
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit-the Father will send Him in My name-will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.


John 16:7 CSB
Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.


Acts 1:5 CSB
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 11:14 CSB

He will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came down on them, just as on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

[biblebuf]

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Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

Something you don't seem to understand here, you're brought to your salvation by the Holy Spirit not by any man. John 6:44-45, 65

Salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel not on who you hear it from.

[calluna]

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You got it from God as the police say.

Like this?

'The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.' Gal 5:6 NIV

Or is it actually heresy? Is the love bit, where people do not lie about others, not actually required?

Is there any purpose to this OP other than bald Calvinist propaganda?

For those who are not OSAS adherents, the following makes perfect sense:

How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

For those who believe in OSAS, who, unlike James, Peter and indeed Paul, believe that people can be saved despite having no fruits of the Spirit, not all of the above is true. Indeed, one might suppose that Calvinism encourages false teachers who display lack of love for their congregations, telling them that they are going to heaven, whatever the hell they do.

That appears to be that. 

[JB Horn]

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Like this?

'The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.' Gal 5:6 NIV

Or is it actually heresy? Is the love bit, where people do not lie about others, not actually required?

Is there any purpose to this OP other than bald Calvinist propaganda?

For those who are not OSAS adherents, the following makes perfect sense:

How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

For those who believe in OSAS, who, unlike James, Peter and indeed Paul, believe that people can be saved despite having no fruits of the Spirit, not all of the above is true. Indeed, one might suppose that Calvinism encourages false teachers who display lack of love for their congregations, telling them that they are going to heaven, whatever the hell they do.

That appears to be that. 

This is a great post it's almost like it comes out the mouth of the Pope. Apparently calluna believes that until you show Works there is no salvation. Apparently Paul was lied to by the Holy Spirit when he penned the these words.

Romans 9:32 KJV
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone ;

Galatians 2:16 KJV
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified .

James taught us that works are a result of salvation, not salvation as a result of the works. Why Arminians can't comprehend this is beyond me. Calvinists believe that Christians do works because their love for Christ our Savior and Lord. We do works because it pleases God, not to enhance our standing with God.

Another reason I like this post is it shows how Arminians want to argue with the Scriptures by using, common sense.

JB

[calluna]

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James taught us

James taught Christians. If they took due note of his letter, that is.

that works are a result of salvation

James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works." James, Peter, Paul, and Jesus, too. See how they run.

Calvinists believe that Christians do works because their love for Christ

True. Even if they are not Christians themselves. If it is possible to be Calvinist and Christian.

How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

[JB Horn]

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James taught Christians. If they took due note of his letter, that is.

James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works." James, Peter, Paul, and Jesus, too. See how they run.

True. Even if they are not Christians themselves. If it is possible to be Calvinist and Christian.

How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.

Another great point is made here, Calvinists teach the Arminians are in fact Christians that believe they've come to Christ through their own will.To Calvinists the argument between Arminianism and Calvinism is not that they arrived at the cross, but how they got there.

But as you see by this post is not the same with Arminians. They question the salvation of Calvinist just because Calvinist give all the credit to God and take none for themselves.

It's funny how one can preach love out of one side of their mouth with a spit on you with the other.

James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works."

I would like you also all to take note of this quote. Note how she first says that works are a result of justification, in the next sentence says that without works there is no justification. This is not uncommon in a debate with Arminians they get caught up with the chicken and egg argument.

 James did not say, they are saved by their works, he said you will know them by their works.

[calluna]

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Another great point is made here, Calvinists teach

that Christians are Christians, because they will destroy their own credibility if they do not. Great point, indeed. The papists have a similar problem today. (They of course condemned Calvinism long before Calvin, so are not completely wrong.)

Christians do not actually teach that Calvinism is of the devil, though doubtless every one of them thinks that a deity who deliberately makes people for destruction is so vile that only demons could teach it. Along with just about every other normal person, apart from the demonic aspect.

I would like you also all to take note of this quote. Note how she

Calvinists joined with Catholics in committing murder.

And of course lying about what people had written.

What's new?

James did not say, they are saved by their works, he said you will know them by their works.

Indeed. And, dear reader, you are unlikely to find a Calvinist any different from JB Horn, on the internet, anyway

Calvinism, the work of a shady Catholic lawyer, with thugs in support. As shambolic as it's shameful.

[biblebuf]

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Calvinism, the work of a shady Catholic lawyer, with thugs in support. As shambolic as it's shameful.

Attack the messenger. Ever try using the scriptures in your arguments?