Bible discussion
Bible Talk => General => Topic started by: JB Horn on July 15, 2013, 05:28:12 pm
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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
Mark 9:38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.
Matthew 7:22
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?'
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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.
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Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.
True the Holy Spirit was not or is not in them.
But the question:The question has arisen, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
Is the earthly state of those saved important when we are talking eternity?
Luke 15:7 I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don't need repentance.
Luke 15:10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord your God is among you, a warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will bring [you] quietness with His love. He will delight in you with shouts of joy."
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True the Holy Spirit was not or is not in them.
But the question:
Is the earthly state of those saved important when we are talking eternity?
Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
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Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
By this I presume that you don't believe that a person receives the Holy Ghost when they are saved. And that you believe that once you are save you can lose your salvation. Also you believe that justification comes after or at the time of death.
Am I wrong in my presumption?
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By this I presume that you don't believe that a person receives the Holy Ghost when they are saved.
Can you prove that you think like that? Or do we here witness a malicious Calvinist smear?
You've got form, Horn. As the police say.
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Can you prove that you think like that? Or do we here witness a malicious Calvinist smear?
You've got form, Horn. As the police say.
You got it from God as the police say.
Matthew 3:11 CSB
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but the One who is coming after me is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to take off His sandals. He Himself will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 14:26 CSB
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit-the Father will send Him in My name-will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
John 16:7 CSB
Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.
Acts 1:5 CSB
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Acts 11:14 CSB
He will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came down on them, just as on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
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Yes, of course it's important. But how many are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
Something you don't seem to understand here, you're brought to your salvation by the Holy Spirit not by any man. John 6:44-45, 65
Salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel not on who you hear it from.
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You got it from God as the police say.
Like this?
'The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.' Gal 5:6 NIV
Or is it actually heresy? Is the love bit, where people do not lie about others, not actually required?
Is there any purpose to this OP other than bald Calvinist propaganda?
For those who are not OSAS adherents, the following makes perfect sense:
How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
For those who believe in OSAS, who, unlike James, Peter and indeed Paul, believe that people can be saved despite having no fruits of the Spirit, not all of the above is true. Indeed, one might suppose that Calvinism encourages false teachers who display lack of love for their congregations, telling them that they are going to heaven, whatever the hell they do.
That appears to be that. ;)
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Like this?
'The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.' Gal 5:6 NIV
Or is it actually heresy? Is the love bit, where people do not lie about others, not actually required?
Is there any purpose to this OP other than bald Calvinist propaganda?
For those who are not OSAS adherents, the following makes perfect sense:
How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
For those who believe in OSAS, who, unlike James, Peter and indeed Paul, believe that people can be saved despite having no fruits of the Spirit, not all of the above is true. Indeed, one might suppose that Calvinism encourages false teachers who display lack of love for their congregations, telling them that they are going to heaven, whatever the hell they do.
That appears to be that. ;)
This is a great post it's almost like it comes out the mouth of the Pope. Apparently calluna believes that until you show Works there is no salvation. Apparently Paul was lied to by the Holy Spirit when he penned the these words.
Romans 9:32 KJV
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone ;
Galatians 2:16 KJV
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified .
James taught us that works are a result of salvation, not salvation as a result of the works. Why Arminians can't comprehend this is beyond me. Calvinists believe that Christians do works because their love for Christ our Savior and Lord. We do works because it pleases God, not to enhance our standing with God.
Another reason I like this post is it shows how Arminians want to argue with the Scriptures by using, common sense.
JB
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James taught us
James taught Christians. If they took due note of his letter, that is.
that works are a result of salvation
James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works." James, Peter, Paul, and Jesus, too. See how they run.
Calvinists believe that Christians do works because their love for Christ
True. Even if they are not Christians themselves. If it is possible to be Calvinist and Christian.
How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
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James taught Christians. If they took due note of his letter, that is.
James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works." James, Peter, Paul, and Jesus, too. See how they run.
True. Even if they are not Christians themselves. If it is possible to be Calvinist and Christian.
How many institutionalised converts are actually justified when they die? Or are many, like the people whom James addressed, merely going through the motions? And is a group of nominalist 'Christians' not a wonderful gain for Satan? How many have been persuaded that Christ is useless by apparently devout but actually useless 'Christians' who show no fruits of the Spirit? Or at least, given an excuse not to believe? There has been dark method in evangelisation by false apostles.
Another great point is made here, Calvinists teach the Arminians are in fact Christians that believe they've come to Christ through their own will.To Calvinists the argument between Arminianism and Calvinism is not that they arrived at the cross, but how they got there.
But as you see by this post is not the same with Arminians. They question the salvation of Calvinist just because Calvinist give all the credit to God and take none for themselves.
It's funny how one can preach love out of one side of their mouth with a spit on you with the other.
James taught that works are the result of justification. No works, no conversion, no justification; and no salvation, either. "You will know them by their works."
I would like you also all to take note of this quote. Note how she first says that works are a result of justification, in the next sentence says that without works there is no justification. This is not uncommon in a debate with Arminians they get caught up with the chicken and egg argument.
James did not say, they are saved by their works, he said you will know them by their works.
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Another great point is made here, Calvinists teach
that Christians are Christians, because they will destroy their own credibility if they do not. Great point, indeed. The papists have a similar problem today. (They of course condemned Calvinism long before Calvin, so are not completely wrong.)
Christians do not actually teach that Calvinism is of the devil, though doubtless every one of them thinks that a deity who deliberately makes people for destruction is so vile that only demons could teach it. Along with just about every other normal person, apart from the demonic aspect.
I would like you also all to take note of this quote. Note how she
Calvinists joined with Catholics in committing murder.
And of course lying about what people had written.
What's new?
James did not say, they are saved by their works, he said you will know them by their works.
Indeed. And, dear reader, you are unlikely to find a Calvinist any different from JB Horn, on the internet, anyway
Calvinism, the work of a shady Catholic lawyer, with thugs in support. As shambolic as it's shameful.
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Calvinism, the work of a shady Catholic lawyer, with thugs in support. As shambolic as it's shameful.
Attack the messenger. Ever try using the scriptures in your arguments?
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And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Now back to the question: Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
Romans 10:14 NAS
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed ? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard ? And how will they hear without a preacher ?
Romans 10:17 NAS
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
You know back in the days of Paul there was no New Testament and no way to read about Christ except for the letters that were being written and distributed amongst the Church at that time. One other fact is that most the people of those days did not read, they listen to the Scriptures being read to them at the synagogues.
Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?
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Can a mon-believer lead others to Christ?
Since evangelicalism began in the 18th century, non-Christians frequently bought people to Christ, in order to institutionalise them, and therefore neutralise them, immediately thereafter. Their converts usually 'died' due to lack of proper feeding, lack of love by shepherds whose interest was only in themselves. The Holy Spirit was certainly not in those preachers, who often became household names. They may rather have been demon-possessed.
Note from Admin Dude: Please do not spam, repeating same post adding nothing to the debate, thank you
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You know back in the days of Paul there was no New Testament and no way to read about Christ except for the letters that were being written and distributed amongst the Church at that time. One other fact is that most the people of those days did not read, they listen to the Scriptures being read to them at the synagogues.
Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?
You can actually get the Bible on tapes now, you don't even have to know how to read you can hear in many different languages. Does the reader of the tapes have to be a Christian? I don't think so, I think you still get the message from the Holy Ghost.
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Today a person can pick up a copy of the gospel and read it for himself. In this way he learns without the preacher, is he not lead to the gospel by an un-believer 'himself' ?
The Gideons have some wonderful stories about how people have come to salvation by reading their Bibles. Last time they were at our church they told us about a young kid who found one of their Bibles at a dump site under some trash. The kid wanted to learn to read any never had a book before, so we took it home and with the help of his parents he not only learn to read he was led to a salvation and is presently a minister.
I don't think you can say that you have to hear the gospel from any special person. I agree that it is the presence of the Holy Spirit that lead you to your salvation, and not another human being.
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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.
My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant!
On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.
By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed.
As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.
Amazing, wonderful, powerful stuff........ Except that the outraged Bishop and the chaplain immediately started shouting and screaming at them to stop all that devilish demonic jabbering. The church officials went ballistic and two boys were terrified and humiliated into a crushed tearful silence.
The whole thing was wrapped up and swept under the carpet. Nobody spoke of it again.
Shocked into unbelief, my friend grew up and got on with his life, completely burying the whole event as one of those childhood nightmares best forgotten. His life tumbled on and things gradually descended into a chaos of alcoholism and a broken marriage. Only then did he encounter the gospel again. His wife came to know the Lord and he was persuaded to attend a meeting. It all flooded back. He was gloriously filled with the Holy Spirit again and God started to restore all things.
So yes, most certainly an unbeliever can lead others to Christ. Sadly when they do, these hypocrites all too often do what the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus's time did. Shut up heaven against men. Neither entering themselves and making sure that those who are trying cannot enter.
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A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.
My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant!
On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.
By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed.
As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.
Amazing, wonderful, powerful stuff........ Except that the outraged Bishop and the chaplain immediately started shouting and screaming at them to stop all that devilish demonic jabbering. The church officials went ballistic and two boys were terrified and humiliated into a crushed tearful silence.
The whole thing was wrapped up and swept under the carpet. Nobody spoke of it again.
Shocked into unbelief, my friend grew up and got on with his life, completely burying the whole event as one of those childhood nightmares best forgotten. His life tumbled on and things gradually descended into a chaos of alcoholism and a broken marriage. Only then did he encounter the gospel again. His wife came to know the Lord and he was persuaded to attend a meeting. It all flooded back. He was gloriously filled with the Holy Spirit again and God started to restore all things.
So yes, most certainly an unbeliever can lead others to Christ. Sadly when they do, these hypocrites all too often do what the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus's time did. Shut up heaven against men. Neither entering themselves and making sure that those who are trying cannot enter.
:)
He will have all His sheep in the end.
John 6:39 CSB
This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise them up on the last day.
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A friend of mine was educated in a private Church of England school. Part of that education was the confirmation class. Over a period of months, they were taught by the school chaplain all that was required in preparation for their confirmation service, and first communion. The confirmation service was to be held in the local Anglican cathedral, and they were to be confirmed by the Bishop.
Small 'b'.
My friend and his buddy were amongst a whole year's worth of children being prepared for this event. These two young boys were in a state of awe about what they had been told. They were taught that the ceremony of confirmation and laying on of hands was when the Holy Spirit of God would come upon them, whatever that meant! On that day, the children were all white robed and waiting in a double line at the back of the cathedral. At the appropriate point they would be sent to walk the length of the aisle towards the wonderfully bedecked bishop, sitting Godlike on his glorious throne at the front. Then they would kneel down before his throne as he laid hands on them and spoke the magic words.
By friend and his buddy, when their time came, nervously walked down the aisle and knelt as they had been told. However for them there was a difference. The two of them had been talking about what they had learned during the boring religious lessons, and they both foolishly expected something special to happen when this representative of God laid hands on them and prayed
Or foolishly decided to make something happen.
As the Bishop reached out his hands and mumbled the words from his little book, the power of God fell on the two boys and filled them with the Holy Spirit and immediate speaking in tongues etc. Just like the bible promised.
The Bible didn't promise.
To find a person who speaks in tongues and has the essential fruits of the Spirit is something of a miracle!
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He will have all His sheep in the end.
But only the Father knows who they are.
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But only the Father knows who they are.
John 10:14 CSB
"I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
John 10:27 CSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
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John 10:14 CSB
"I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
But not each other.
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But not each other.
True, not all the time, and never until they accept Christ.
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1) Small 'b'.
2) Or foolishly decided to make something happen.
3) The Bible didn't promise.
4) To find a person who speaks in tongues and has the essential fruits of the Spirit is something of a miracle!
1) calluna, thank you for pointing out that I should have not used a B for bishop. Really useful stuff!
2) Or foolishly decided to make something happen?
Are you serious? These were two innocent children who were fearful but expectant about what was supposed to happen that day. They had heard absolutely nothing about speaking in tongues, it was not part of the confirmation classes. They were baptized in the Spirit simply happened because in their foolishness they believed what they were told from the bible, by an authority figure who just happened to be a total unbeliever.
3) The bible most certainly did promise!
Jesus himself promised that the Heavenly Father would pour out his Spirit on those who simply ask.
4) Your caustic comment, that someone who speaks in tongues and also bears the fruits of the spirit, being a miracle, speaks volumes about you alone.
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1) calluna, thank you for pointing out that I should have not used a B for bishop.
... because it validated the criminality of those who have murdered Christians. Christians will be grateful.
3) The bible most certainly did promise!
Jesus himself promised that the Heavenly Father would pour out his Spirit on those who simply ask.
True. But that is not relevant to your claim, is it. And you won't find a verse that is.
A highly predictable response, overall.
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calluna
... because it validated the criminality of those who have murdered Christians. Christians will be grateful.
Care to give an explanation?
True. But that is not relevant to your claim, is it. And you won't find a verse that is.
Care to give an explanation?
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The question has arised, can a non Christian be used by the Holy Spirit to lead others to Christ?
No.
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No.
Hello Ted
Are you saying that it takes an act of another Christian and that the Holy Spirit can't work through a non-believer to bring the gospel to another non-believer?
Arern't we all taught by God upon hearing the gospel? What defrence does it make how are ears hear the word when it is allways the Spirit that brings it to our heart?
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
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Hello Ted
Are you saying that it takes an act of another Christian and that the Holy Spirit can't work through a non-believer to bring the gospel to another non-believer?
Arern't we all taught by God upon hearing the gospel? What defrence does it make how are ears hear the word when it is allways the Spirit that brings it to our heart?
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
It is dependent upon what you assume to be the gospel. Since there are only a very few that ever find out what the gate that one must have the faith to use to enter God's kingdom is; the few who do find it will not be endorsing the assumption of the religious majority.
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It is dependent upon what you assume to be the gospel. Since there are only a very few that ever find out what the gate that one must have the faith to use to enter God's kingdom is; the few who do find it will not be endorsing the assumption of the religious majority.
Well, let's assume we are talking about the gospel according to Theodore A. Jones.
Let me ask it this way:
Are you saying that it takes an act of another Christian and that the Holy Spirit can't work through a non-believer to bring the gospel (according to Theodore A. Jones) to another non-believer?
Arern't we all taught by God upon hearing the gospel (according to Theodore A. Jones)? What defrence does it make how are ears hear the word when it is allways the Spirit that brings it to our heart?
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.