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A conversation With A Jehovah's Witness

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Dandi:
  Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses have published a Bible Translation that is called the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.  Even with their own Bible translation, their other publications often quote from various other Bible translation as well as the New World Translation.  When publishing this translation of the scriptures, Jehovah's Witnesses were deeply concerned with maintaining a high level of accuracy when translating the scriptures into modern speech, as well as restoring God's name where it has been deleted from other Bible translations.
  Isaiah 9:6 speaks mentions names or titles that Jesus would have.  It is not unusual for the names and titles of individuals to be capitalized.  Yes, the verse indicates that Jesus would be called "Mighty God".  But never in the scriptures is Jesus called Almighty God or God Almighty.  That is a title reserved for his Father only.  In the Bible, the word god can mean "mighty one" or "strong one" and others besides our Heavenly Father and Jesus have been referred to as gods (Exodus 12:12, 2 Corinthians 4:4).  Even Satan is called the god of this system of things at 2 Cor 4:4.  Satan is not our heavenly father or our Creator, but surely his influence in the world of mankind constitutes him as a "mighty one" or "strong one".  In the same way, Jesus is a mighty one and strong one, even more so. 
  Interestingly, at John 17:3, Jesus spoke of his Father as being "the only true God", meaning that his Father is the only God who should be worshipped.
  The scriptures indicate that Jesus is not God Almighty.  Jehovah is shown in the Bible to be the Creator of all, the one without beginning or end, and is called the Almighty (Revelation 4:11, Psalms 90:2, Genesis 17:1, Revelation 16:14, Exodus 6:3, Job 8:3, Revelation 1:8).
  On the other hand, Jesus had a beginning and is called the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15)  Jesus referred to God as his father saying, "The Father is greater than I am (John 14:28).  Jesus said there were things that neither he or the angels knew, but that only his Father knew (Mark 13:32).  Jesus prayed to his Father, "Let not my will but yours take place" (Luke 22:42).  1 Corinthians 11:3 says that "the head of Christ is God."
  These are some of the scriptural reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is God's son, not equal to his Father.
  Jesus being called "Eternal Father" is referring to the role he plays in granting everlasting or eternal life to his true followers.  As the person with the power and authority to give us the prospect of eternal life by means of his ransom sacrifice (authority given to him by his Father), we can rightly call his Eternal Father.

Dandi:
Hi JB...  As you may know already, there is much symbolic language used in the book of Revelation.  What you have quoted from Revelation 14 about these individuals who will make up this group of 144,000, about how they are virgins, and how no falsehood was found in their mouths or how they were without blemish or blameless, must be symbolic language.  How we know that?  Well, we have to compare this verse with other verses found in God's inspired word.
  If literal virginity was a necessity to having this heavenly calling, why would the apostle Paul write to christians who had the heavenly calling that it was preferable that they remain unmarried BUT that due to the prevalence or threat of fornication which some are more susceptible to, a man could have his own wife and a woman could have her own husband and they would not sin (1 Corinthians 7:1,2,36,37)?
  This virginity is symbolic, a spiritual virginity.  In the Bible, God's people were to only worship him, they were never to incorporate worship of any other gods into their worship of Jehovah.  There were to have a special relationship with Jehovah alone, much like married individuals have a special relationship with each other and are not to go outside of the marriage sexually and commit adultery.  In the Bible, when God's people were unfaithful to him and worshipped other gods, it is described as an act of adultery.  An example is at Hosea 3:1. In the book of Revelation false religion is likened to a harlot or prostitute (Revelation 17:1,2,6,18).  Maintaining spiritual virginity would constitute their having avoided spiritual adultery or fornication by not getting involved with false religion and worldly politics.
  The fact that it says that they did not defile themselves with women in particular, does not imply that all 144,000 will be males.  Notice Pauls words at Galations 3:26-29.  It says ALL of you  were baptized into Christ...  There is neither Jew nor Greek...  Neither male nor female...  These verses indicate that their sex or nationality would have no bearing or importance on their belonging to Christ and being heirs of his Kingdom.......
  The tribes listed at Revelation 7:5-8 are not the natural tribes of Israel because there was never a tribe of Joseph, and the actual tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not even included in the list here.  Also, the Levites were not considered one of the 12 actual tribes because they were set aside for service related to the temple, yet Levi is listed as a tribe in Revelation 7:5-8   The actual tribes are listed in Numbers 1:14-16.   So, we cannot understand Revelation 7:5-8 to mean that only natural Jews will make up the 144,000 because these are not the actual tribes of Israel listed in those verses.
  Also take a look at Romans 2:28, 29 where it shows that being a physical Jew was not necessary to be one of God's people with a heavenly calling because the Law of Christ replaced the Mosaic Law and all the writtens codes that had to be adhered to and the special relationship the Jews had with God as his chose people were done away with...........
  Numerous scriptures remind us that all descendants of Adam are sinners.  Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  And the Bible says that there is no man who doesn't sin, all descendants of Adam are imperfect (1 kings 8:46).  So it isn't possible then for any member of the 144,000 to literally be persons who have never lied or who are literally blameless and without blemish.  However, "no falsehood was found in their mouths" and "they are without blemish" in the sense that they strive to follow Christ's example as best as they humanly can, knowing that Christ was a perfect man on earth who committed no sin and that no deception was found in his mouth, and as he did they teach the truth about Jesus Father and the heavenly kingdom.  They strive to keep themselves as spiritually clean as they can living in a world that is corrupted.............
  1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to members of the 144,000 who would rule with Christ in heaven.

Dandi:
Oh yeah,,,,,  and regarding the fact that the verse says they were purchased from among men.......  This does not mean that all 144,000 would be males either.    You'll notice in one of the verses I referenced earlier, 1 Kings 8:46, it says that "there is no man that does not sin."  Is that to say that there are women who don't sin, but not men because it says "men"?  Of course not.  Men and women alike inherity sin from Adam.  The term "man" can be used generically to include men and women alike, much like the term "mankind" is not only referring to males, but refers to the entire human race.  So when it says they were purchased from among men it can be understood to mean that these individuals are chosen from among mankind, men and women.  This understanding is supported by other scriptures...

JB Horn:
Hi again Dandi

There is only one purpose in the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of the Bible, and that is to deny the deity of Christ. This Bible is such a heresy that all the major websites that carry hundreds of translations of the Bible for purposes of study, refused to carry the New World testament.

Let's not take my word for let's look at their Bible and see if your quote that they are taught to discern the Scriptures by using logic.



--- Quote from: Dandi ---The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures.  Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone.  In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
--- End quote ---

But before we go anywhere let's look at the two verses and revelations that we have questions about their meaning. To make this easier I am posting the two verses as translated by the unknown scholars of the New World testament.

Revelation 14:4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, (NWT)

 In revelations 14 the first sentence of verse four makes it clear that we are talking about one group, one gender. The New World translation cannot accomplish what it hoped to by translating, "among man" to "among mankind." But this was not enough to overcome the limitations of the group placed on it by the first sentence.

Revelations 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: (NWT)

Revelations 7 is very clear that we are talking about people from the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. These are not Gentiles from Kansas City. There is not a lot of logic needed to draw this conclusion, in fact it takes very little common sense to come out with the correct doctrine concerning the 144,000.


Most people are aware of the major discrepancy between the New World testament and all other translations of the Bible that is contained in John 1. This is of a course in attempt to label Christ as a god but a minor god not worthy of worship. But let's go past this verse in John and look at some of the other problems we have with this translation. The JW's have translated the same word (proskunevw) when referring to God the father as "worship" but when referring to Christ as "obeisance" meaning honor.

Matthew 4:10 proskunevw = worship
Matthew 2:8 proskunevw =  obeisance

This discrepancy is found throughout the verses of the Bible and not just limited to these two Matthews. The reason I bring this up is in two other verses we see another discrepancy on the translation of the word, "kavmptw"

Philippians 2:10 CSB
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth-

10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, (NWT)

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

14 On account of this I bend my knees to the Father, (NWT)

Now you may wonder why I am pointing out this discrepancy which at first glance appears to be minor. So what if the JW's bow down to Christ? After all man does bow to King's and this is not considered worship. But this is not so with the Jews who wrote the Bible including the New Testament. If you do not believe this I suggested she read the book of Esther and pay pacific attention to Chapter 3.

Again referring to your quote that the JW's are taught to use logic, may I inform you and the other readers of this thread that the JW's teach that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. Are they putting themselves above Christ? Are not the angels to be judged by man? 1 Corinthians 6:3 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I think I have to mention that when we talk about Christ and who he is we must concern ourselves with the one He called Father. The JW's are quick to point out that the Trinity cannot be one if Christ prayed to the Father. I would like to point out that it is Christ in the flesh, the man, who prayed to the Father. So let's analyze this relationship that Christ has with the Father and who the Father is. For this I like to go back and look at two versus in Matthews.

Matthew 1:18 KJV
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

18 But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united.(NWT)

Matthew 28:19 KJV Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit (NWT)

Note that in both verses the King James version and most other Bibles capitalize Holy Ghost but the New World testament does not. You say so what JB as no big deal, oh but it is. This is an attempt to show that the Holy Ghost is not in fact an entity or a separate deity. When discussing this with JW's I have been told when questioning them on who is the father of Christ, that the Holy Ghost and the Father are one and the same. Of course in Matthew 28:19 we run into a major problem for those of you that are taught to use logic when reading the Bible. We see the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost listed separately but under one name. Logically speaking if the Father and the Holy Ghost are the same entity then why should it not read in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father? Why is the Holy Ghost even listed?

We can get into the STAKE and THE KINGDOM HALL later. 8)

In Love
JB

Dandi:
Greetings JB... 
   Please tell me if I am correct in my understanding of your beliefs or not.  It seems to me that you believe that Jesus should be worshipped and prayed to, that there is no higher personality in the universe than Jesus, that either you don't recognize Jehovah or that you feel that Jesus and Jehovah are equal in some way.  Please do correct me if I have misunderstood you.
  If my understanding of your belief is correct, then how do you explain John 17:3 where Jesus called his Father the only true God...
  How do you explain that in the Bible, Jesus is never called ALMIGHTY God; only his Father is.
  How do you explain Colosians 1:15 which says that Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation.  If Jesus is Almighty God, there is no one that created him, and therefore, he could not be a firstborn.  He is not Almighty God.  He is given the title Mighty God, but is not ALMIGHTY God.  There is a difference between Mighty and Almighty.  Jesus receives honor and respect as the king of his Father's heavenly kingdom.  So, yes, all knees on earth should bend to him in acknowledgement of his lofty position given to him by his Father.    But, the Bible even shows that after a certain amount of time ruling in this heavenly kingdom, Jesus will hand the kingdom back to his God and Father, further indicating that Jesus is not God Almighty.  How do you explain what is written at 1 Corinthians 15: 20 - 28? :
King James Version says in those verses, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  For he hath put all things under his feet.  But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Now, compare that with what the New World Translation says, "However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.  For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man.  For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.  But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.  Next, the end when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.  For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.  As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.  For God "subjected all things under his feet."  But when he says that all things have been  subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.  But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

If Jesus is to be worshipped as the Sovereign of the universe, please explain 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says that God is the head of Christ Jesus.

If Jesus is Almighty God to be worshipped, then why does he pray to someone he calls his Father, and why does he say that he does nothing of his own initiative?  That is at John 5:19, King James, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."  New Worl Translation, "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing.  For whatever things that One does, these things the  Son does in like manner.".... If Jesus is Almighty God, surely he would do all things of his own initiative.  But he does not, and so it is scripturally inaccurate to view him as Almighty God.

  Why are there so many scriptures in the Bible that indicate that the Son, Jesus, is inferior to/ not equal to the Father, Jehovah?

  The bible published by Jehovah's Witnesses was not published with any intent to make Jesus have a role that he does not have.  It uses modern, clear language, and the translators held closely to the original Bible languages.  It seems, though, that no matter how much the scriptures in totality indicate that Jesus is not God Almighty, some people want to make him God Almighty anyway, ignoring the scriptural evidence.  It is a serious matter, because if you are worshipping someone you should not be worshipping, then it means you are not worshipping the one you should be worshipping.  It could mean that a person's worship is in vain.

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