Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?

[Fat]

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I think you do not understand Redemptive History.

What about saints who lived before Israel was a nation?

Gentiles were "grafted into the olive tree"....they did not replace it, God did a new thing...It is not replacing, but fulfilling....you miss that entirely.

I don't believe that you understand what Supersessionism is. What you say is true but it has nothing to do with replacement theology.
 Replacement theology is a heresy because it assumes that God will not keep his promise to the Jewish nation. This is proven wrong in 1948 when Israel returned as a nation. I hope you understand that if you believe in replacement theology you have to believe that your own salvation is in peril.

[Iconoclast]

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I don't believe that you understand what Supersessionism is. What you say is true but it has nothing to do with replacement theology.
 Replacement theology is a heresy because it assumes that God will not keep his promise to the Jewish nation. This is proven wrong in 1948 when Israel returned as a nation. I hope you understand that if you believe in replacement theology you have to believe that your own salvation is in peril.

Hello Fat,

Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?

[Fat]

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Hello Fat,

Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?

Vs 31. "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.


Vs. 45. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

The Pharisees were being addressed and they understood that they were not doing the will of God. How did you determine that He was addressing a nation and not these Pharisees who twist the Scriptures for their own personal gain.

[Hal]

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Hello Fat,

Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?

Peter spoke of the Church being a holy nation but it doesn’t appear to have relevance in these verses.
The church does not replace Israel, Paul makes that clear in Romans 11.

[Iconoclast]

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The Pharisees were being addressed and they understood that they were not doing the will of God. How did you determine that He was addressing a nation and not these Pharisees who twist the Scriptures for their own personal gain.

Hello fat,
I was speaking about the wording which is clear in vs 43.....taken from you and given to a nation......what nation is that?

[Iconoclast]

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Peter spoke of the Church being a holy nation but it doesn’t appear to have relevance in these verses.
The church does not replace Israel, Paul makes that clear in Romans 11.

HELLO Hal,
Answer and explain the question in verse 43......compare if you would Isa.5.....

Peter is showing the exact parallel to Ex.19.....except in 1 pet2....it is part of the New Exodus in Jesus....not the first one unto Moses 1 cor 10....
Take some time to think along those lines and you might like what you see.

[Fat]

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Hello fat,
I was speaking about the wording which is clear in vs 43.....taken from you and given to a nation......what nation is that?

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
Matthew‬ 21:43‬ NASB‬‬

The point is that He is addressing the legalist,Pharisees, not the nation of Israel. The Pharisees  were left in the LAW.

You can’t cherry pick your verses from a chapter like that and expect it to be swallowed as whole truth here.

[Hal]

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HELLO Hal,
Answer and explain the question in verse 43......compare if you would Isa.5.....

Peter is showing the exact parallel to Ex.19.....except in 1 pet2....it is part of the New Exodus in Jesus....not the first one unto Moses 1 cor 10....
Take some time to think along those lines and you might like what you see.

Hello Icon

You beliefs have some conflicts with the rest of Scripture;


“"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more. And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.”
Joel‬ 3:1-21‬ NASB‬‬

[Iconoclast]

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Hello Icon

You beliefs have some conflicts with the rest of Scripture;


“"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

This language of judgement matches that found in the book of revelation 14;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Sounds like the judgment that came in the first century...

The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.

[/b][/color]
 The language of the sun moon and stars signifies a change of governmental administration in scripture.
Joel had just used it in chapter two describing a day of the lord.....there were many in the OT.


10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Peter quotes from Joel 2 also at Pentecost...identifying the correct time frame, using the same language;
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord

The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more. And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.”
Joel‬ 3:1-21‬ NASB‬‬

[/b][/color]

it does tie together...can you see it?

[Hal]

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[/b][/color]
 The language of the sun moon and stars signifies a change of governmental administration in scripture.
Joel had just used it in chapter two describing a day of the lord.....there were many in the OT.


10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Peter quotes from Joel 2 also at Pentecost...identifying the correct time frame, using the same language;
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord




it does tie together...can you see it?

it does tie together...can you see it?

Not even close.

[Iconoclast]

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it does tie together...can you see it?

Not even close.

Not even close??? are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood??? Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?

[Hal]

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Not even close??? are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood??? Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?

Like I said, not even close. You are running from the truth.

For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat,

[Iconoclast]

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it does tie together...can you see it?

Not even close.

Hal.....in a discussion...we can discuss....this does not look like you are responding to what i asked you....

1]Not even close??? are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?

2]Peter quotes Joel 2;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I am asking what you think the highlighted portion speaks of?

3]here it is again;
mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Hal I am asking for your understanding of these events ....specifically

a] the sun and moon will not give their light

b] the stars shall fall from heaven

Hal....I am not asking for a commentary on it...I am asking this....what does it mean the sun and moon will not give their light, the stars will fall from heaven???

Are these literal events, when do they occur? or what ideas do you have on this???

[Hal]

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And I was quoting Joel 3. You attack on the Scriptures is to leave out the people of Israel.

I can piece mill verses together that will tell the story of the three bears.

If you are truly interested in a discussion why don’t you be upfront on your beliefs, just lay it out for us.

[Iconoclast]

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And I was quoting Joel 3. You attack on the Scriptures is to leave out the people of Israel.

I can piece mill verses together that will tell the story of the three bears.

If you are truly interested in a discussion why don’t you be upfront on your beliefs, just lay it out for us.

I would like you to answers the questions I asked you....all of them...